How many screws for a Zip?

What kind, options, etc.

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Andy Garrett
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How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Andy Garrett » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:11 pm

The Zip fastener kit comes with 4 gross 3/4" screws. That seems like barely enough to do the bottom.

How many more should I order for the entire job with a finished deck, etc.? :?
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

Oyster
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Oyster » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:38 pm

If you consider a gross as 12 dozen, and times that by four, I cannot fathom you ever using that many screws in just the bottom, especially when using epoxy as a glue. Lets look at a general number for just one row at one fastening point fore and aft. At the worse if you use a fastener every six inches, thats only 33 per running length in one line for example.

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Roberta
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Roberta » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:35 pm

Per the plans, you need a screw every 3" along the shears, chines, strong backs, stem, and keel. Every 6" along battens plus you need to consider what you need for any butt joints. If you are planking over the plywood, you need to consider how you will anchor the planking. 4 gross will do the bottom and sides, but you will need more for the decking.

Roberta :D
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Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

Oyster
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Oyster » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:52 pm

Roberta Hegy wrote:Per the plans, you need a screw every 3" along the shears, chines, strong backs, stem, and keel. Every 6" along battens plus you need to consider what you need for any butt joints. If you are planking over the plywood, you need to consider how you will anchor the planking. 4 gross will do the bottom and sides, but you will need more for the decking.

Roberta :D

Disclaimer here, answer and answers may not reflect the designer's wishes,

But anyway, I guess I have been getting off lucky, especially glued lapstrake construction, where we use zero fasteners along the entire hull sides along the laps, many used in the hostile enviroment called the ocean. For sure the bottom does get some hardware, but no where near a fastener every three inches when using thickened epoxy. A fastener only targets a localized area even with the glue. But the layers of the plywood expanded across three inches using clinch nails as the only holding matter even without glue held many local work boats together too.

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Andy Garrett
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Andy Garrett » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:06 pm

Well, a Zip is 14'. I added a foot for the curvature and figured 10 running feet for the stem and transom , so...

The book calls for a screw every 3 inches along the sheer, keel, and chines. Every 6 on the battens, and every 2 where the plywood meets the stem and transom...

Since the chines and keel need two rows each, I figure it like this:
60 on each sheer, 120 on each chine, 100 on the keel, 20 for each of four battens, and 60 for the stem and transom connections.

If I added right, that's 600ish screws. The kit came with 576.

So..., I'll buy three more gross for the deck and see ho that goes. Thanks gang!
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

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Roberta
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Roberta » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:07 pm

I just double checked the instructions and they call for 1" along the stem and transom. 3/4" would be OK unless you have a lot of stress where the bend is greater and along the side plank by the tumble home bends. Don't be afraid of ordering too many screws as they will get used up in all the unforeseen things assembled once you right the hull. I know every time I thought I had enough screws, I ran short and had to order more. Save on shipping and handling and get plenty up front. I use a ton of 1 1/2" # 8s as well.

Roberta :D
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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vupilot
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby vupilot » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:37 pm

I bought the fastening kit and I have extra 3/4" screws but ran out of 1" because I often used 1" in place of 3/4" because I didnt feel like I was hitting enough meat with the short ones in places like the sides on the sheer or the forward bottom on the stem. I wouldnt get extra of the 3/4" but would off 1"

Oyster
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Oyster » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:44 pm

A point of note,,,,If you place too many screws in a line too close along a batten or even a rail batten you can also weaken the solid timber.This will also show up later after some cycling of the seasons and use. In the business its also called "sawing the batten into with fasteners" especially if you go too long with the fasteners. Its very difficult sometimes for people to trust epoxy. Remember Roberta IIRC you are also depending on epoxy only for your own Spartan deck build. :wink:

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jamundsen
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby jamundsen » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:34 pm

I used way more staples than screws on the Monte Carlo. I hope it holds together. :D
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Oyster
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Oyster » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:49 pm

jamundsen wrote:I used way more staples than screws on the Monte Carlo. I hope it holds together. :D

Tell me about it, especially about 60 miles offshore with the new one... :wink: I got about another 300 to go, quite possibly and then I will have another sumtin to pray about. 8) 8)

upspirate

Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby upspirate » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:21 am

One other thing to think about....some of these plans and fastening schedules were drawn up before epoxy was in use for most home builds.

It may have called for more because of the old style adhesives.

Just a thought....I don't know!!! :roll:

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Roberta
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Roberta » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:48 am

Oyster wrote: Remember Roberta IIRC you are also depending on epoxy only for your own Spartan deck build. :wink:


Not true, Mike. I only omitted the screws along the very front of the deck. Please get the facts correct before using my examples.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

Oyster
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Oyster » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:06 am

Roberta Hegy wrote:
Oyster wrote: Remember Roberta IIRC you are also depending on epoxy only for your own Spartan deck build. :wink:


Not true, Mike. I only omitted the screws along the very front of the deck. Please get the facts correct before using my examples.

Roberta

And how far apart are the fasteners that you now have in your build and boat decking? :wink: :wink: I bet a bit more than one, two or three inches. Indeed I did use a broadbrush but the point and the fact is still the same. You did indeed eliminate fasteners in certain parts of the boat, the decking and will allow epoxy only to be the main fastening agent. So please espouse a bit further on why a builder should space and install fasteners one to two inches in what amounts to a row when using epoxy as its main fastening ingredient, which is indeed being used on your own personal build, which I did reference? While the plans may also state a different notion and suggestion that also comes directly from the designer, you have indeed supported my original point to some measure. Peeling plywood in the foward most area of the build can also ruin your day. So why would anyone that feels so strongly to the use of so many fasteners spaced so close would solely depend on epoxy in the most critical part of the boat that really and truely cannot even be serviced without some serious work if water creeps into portion either? But anyway, my point has some serious merit and I stand behind my own premise, YMMV as with all other builders too. over and out,

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Roberta
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby Roberta » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:36 am

I apologize, Mike. I misinterpreted your intentions. The Super Spartan plans called for nails every two inches to secure the decking. I re-spaced that to 3" because I was using # 6 screws and because of the nature of the glues we now use. That was my choice. The fore deck can be covered in muslin or sailcloth on this boat so I felt that, because this area was nonstructural, I could safely omit the screws or nails in this area.

When someone asks the question about what and how many to use, I can only site the engineer/designer's intentions as I know them from my experience on a particular boat build.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

gdcarpenter
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Re: How many screws for a Zip?

Postby gdcarpenter » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:37 am

My 2cents worth to this discussion, since it brings up some intetesting points.

I used virtually no screw attaching the ply to the framing. I only used a few screws in the forward end where I could not possibly clamp the ply in place, and I removed all those screws once epoxied in place.

I'm of the school, and convinced from almost two years of using poxy shield, that mechanical fasteners add little or no significant extra holding power beyond the epoxy bond.

Having been in construction for years I have also seen how screws can 'work' their way out of timbers through years of expansion and contraction of the wood, and while this may be an extremely slow process and may not have much effect it's a risk I have chosen to try and avoid whenever and wherever possible.

Then again - I'm sure some think I've got a few 'loose screws' at the best of times.
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