water based stain

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TOM K
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water based stain

Post by TOM K » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:07 pm

I was wondering if I could get any tips on using water based stain. I am familiar with oil based but have never used water base before. Is there very much difference? I've always applied stain with a soaked up cloth or brushed it on and wiped it back off. Any tips would be appreciated

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Lowka53
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Re: water based stain

Post by Lowka53 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:10 pm

8) it works just about the same applying is done in same way. it will raise the grain of your wood though :wink: make sure it is dry before using epoxy or any other finish on it
Don't be afraid to attempt anything. You might surprise your self in the attempt.
http://www.facebook.com/Home.Made.Boat.Building
Bon Voyage-"Wild Flower" 40' house boat being built
14' Mr John-being built
32' Supper Huck-in design

Rod H

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billy c
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Re: water based stain

Post by billy c » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:19 pm

...you might be better off depending on wood species to use water based dyes
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

cusoak
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Re: water based stain

Post by cusoak » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:22 am

Could you tell us what you want to use it on ( what kind of wood) and how you intend finish over it.
I might have some suggestions/
Jeff

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Lowka53
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Re: water based stain

Post by Lowka53 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:36 am

8) if you using epoxy over your stain than water based is what you want
Don't be afraid to attempt anything. You might surprise your self in the attempt.
http://www.facebook.com/Home.Made.Boat.Building
Bon Voyage-"Wild Flower" 40' house boat being built
14' Mr John-being built
32' Supper Huck-in design

Rod H

TOM K
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Re: water based stain

Post by TOM K » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:06 am

mahogany wood with mahogany stain then epoxy and varnish

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billy c
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Re: water based stain

Post by billy c » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:24 am

hi Tom-
here is the search link for the dye.
search.php?keywords=+dye&terms=all&auth ... mit=Search
you can search water base stain also and get some more information on that as well.
many ways to accomplish the same goals. but the dyes are much better at maintaining clarity of the beautiful wood below your final finish.
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

Brian
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Re: water based stain

Post by Brian » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:41 am

I thought this might be a good place to post some research I've just completed on CPES, stains, and epoxy fiberglass.

For those of you who are encapsulating wood with CPES that you intend to stain, you might want to speak to Smith's directly. I have found a lot of conflicting advice on this and other forums on the subject. While it is true that both water-based and oil-based (not to mention alcohol-based and a couple of other types of stains) will both work, Smith's has serious reservations about water-based stains. While some have claimed that oil-based stains may not dry out completely over CPES, and will result in poor adhesion of epoxy laid over it, Smith's thinks this is unfounded and if it does occur, of no consequence. They recommend a fairly common oil-based stain, as available from hardware stores. Anecdotally, I think if it worries you, maybe hit it with a heat gun before you go to epoxy on top.

Smith's also explains that once you coat the wood with CPES, the use of a transparent stain is pointless. A transparent stain needs to penetrate the wood, which is exactly what CPES is designed to prevent. I experimented with this and the result was virtually identical to no stain at all (just CPES).

Finally, if you have a CPES-coated surface you intend to epoxy fiberglass, scuff it evenly with 100 or 120 after it is good and hard. Stain it if you are going to and let that dry. Then, the day before you are going to fiberglass, give it another CPES coat. Without sanding again, and assuming you can no longer smell the solvents coming off the CPES, apply the epoxy fiberglass directly over it for the best bond. And, of course, polyurethane over the epoxy.

I suspect some of the problems and theories about oil-based stains under epoxy come from cold weather applications and/or poor prep. In any case, a short conversation with Smith's will clear the subject up, and they have done extensive research on the subject. If you're not using CPES, but plan to use epoxy on top, I suspect you can use either type of stain, transparent or not, directly into the wood fibers. But aside from the obvious waterproofing of CPES, it also ensures a consistent finish, since bare wood will have absorption variations that can cause blotchiness. At the end of the day, always experiment with some scrap first!

BobM
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Re: water based stain

Post by BobM » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:49 am

For what it's worth, I used water based dye from Lockwood in NY. The dye can be mixed with either water or alcohol. I mixed it with water and applied it to mahogany. I have coated different dyed components of my build with Smith's CPES, some with System Three Clear Coat and with West Epoxy all with excellent results.

When in the testing phase I found that both West and System Three were not compatible with oil based stains. I never did try CPES over oil based stains.

cusoak
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Re: water based stain

Post by cusoak » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:09 am

Could you elaborate on what happened when you put west and system three over the oil based stain.
I have used Smiths CPES on both my Zip I built and My 66 Century Mahogany boat.
What I did was to stain the boat first with an oil based filler stain. let dry completely for at least 2 days.
Then apply a coat of Smiths over top of it. let that dry completely and then put your varnish on. Works very well.
Smiths will seal the stain in the wood.
Jeff

Brian
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Re: water based stain

Post by Brian » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:24 am

Interestingly, Smith's recommends putting CPES on first, then staining, then CPES. That is the procedure I am following because I really want the CPES to penetrate the Mahogany. The test pieces I have done using oil-based stain and water-based stain on top of CPES and then CPES over that all look fine. As I said earlier, anyone interested in this should call Smith's. They will tell you they "cannot recommend" water-based stains with their CPES. I do wonder if all this is splitting hairs, since the downside either way seems to be very minimal and very long term.

BobM
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Re: water based stain

Post by BobM » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:54 am

When applying the West or System Three epoxies over oil based stain the epoxy beaded up on the surface. The stain had been allowed to dry for 48 hours. Maybe it would have been alright had I waited longer.

cusoak
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Re: water based stain

Post by cusoak » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:38 am

I just read Smiths sheet on using Cpes on mahogany with stain.
It Says that you should not use water based stains with Cpes.
Just FYI.
With oil based stains the ones that fill the fibers of the wood 48 hrs is not long enough for it to cure to put anything over it.
You might be able to spray something on but brushing or rolling would tend to pull at the stain smearing it.
Jeff.
Ps I think that water based stains have come a long way but, still do not hold a candle to oil based stains .

Brian
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Re: water based stain

Post by Brian » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:13 am

I am in the process of testing several oil-based stains over 120-scuffed CPES, then under epoxy fiberglass. I can confirm that 48 hours is not enough time. I think Smith's told me on the phone to wait at least 4 days. Every day, I have hit the test pieces lightly with a heat gun and after 3 days I am still getting a little residue out. And I am in Hawaii, where it is warm every day. Minwax happens to be the one that seems to continue to put out the most. It is also the one I like best. Interlux and Cabot appear to ave dried fully as of today. It has occurred to me that good insurance would be to go over every square inch of the boat surface after staining with a heat gun or some other way of making absolutely sure there is nothing left before applying anything over it.

cusoak
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Re: water based stain

Post by cusoak » Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:35 am

Lets start over here, First what type of wood are you using?
How many coats of Smiths are you putting on? It makes difference.
In my experience the use of a heat gun to dry stain is not a good then to do. It should flash off ( dry) by itself.
If you are still getting moisture it is likely due to high humidity.
Jeff

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