Fred Murphy tug boat.

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Lowka53
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by Lowka53 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:25 pm

:roll: in this state most water drains to one place the great salt Lake It wouldn't be nice to have a couple hundred miles of sewage ponds. in one place. :cry:
Don't be afraid to attempt anything. You might surprise your self in the attempt.
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raymacke
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by raymacke » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:36 pm

whose composting unit did you end up going with?
Rick - We have the "Natures Head" but "Air Head" is another similar unit. I personally feel the Natures Head is a more solid design but neither of these are cheap at about $900. Still if you buy a decent marine head, the holding tank, hoses, etc you will be right at this price point.
in Utah you are not allowed any over board gray or black water outlet you have to pump out
Lowka53 - you mentioned gray water you "have to pump out". I am curious if it makes a difference if it is a simple gravity drain. In my case I don't pump my shower or galley sink.
closest one I know of is somewhere south of St Louis on the Mississippi, and I'm not sure if they have pump out facilities or not.
Rick - Probably referring to Hoppies Marina south of the St Louis Mo area and NO they don't have pump out. In fact, going south down the Mississippi River leaving Alton, IL the first pump out is 292 miles away on Kentucky Lake.

When I owned my 24' express cruiser we would have to bring it home where I would pump out the holding tank into another tank I had mounted on a trailer and then pull it to my septic tank where I could drain it. What a hassle! I find it hard to believe most similar users go to that extent. With just the push of a switch most have the ability to just pump it overboard. I never would (was sure tempted a few times) but I am betting many do. For us the composting head eliminates this problem.
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....

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raymacke
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by raymacke » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:28 pm

Since it has been a couple of years, I just did a search on the subject of gray water and below is fairly well what I am finding. Most all the regs are in reference to black water.

Graywater

Under current federal law, graywater is not defined as a pollutant, nor is it generally considered to be sewage. By regulation, EPA exempts discharges incidental to the normal operation of a vessel, including graywater, from NPDES permit requirements[3]; however, a federal court has ordered EPA to set aside this rule (see discussion of ballast water). There are no separate federal effluent standards for graywater discharges. The Clean Water Act only includes graywater in its definition of sewage for the express purpose of regulating commercial vessels in the Great Lakes, under the Section 312 MSD requirements. Thus, currently graywater can be discharged by vessels anywhere — except in the Great Lakes, where the Section 312 MSD rules apply, but those rules prescribe limits only for bacterial contaminant content and total suspended solids in graywater. Pursuant to a state law in Alaska, graywater must be treated prior to discharge into that state’s waters


So it appears on the Federal side Graywater is not a problem but there maybe individual states that have laws that are different. Also, check out this link from the Coast Guard - www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5213/docs/graywater.pdf

I will continue to dig around and see if I can find anything else.
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....

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El Jefe
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by El Jefe » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:43 pm

Ray, nice work on the gray water issue.

Have you heard of all the problems Lake of the Ozarks is having with ecoli outbreaks? It's believed that's largely due to boats (really big ones) dumping large amounts of sewage in the lake. I wouldn't swim in that water for anything!

Rick

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Lowka53
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by Lowka53 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:27 pm

oK ray you are quoting Federal law I stated the state of Utah they pretty much go with federal but they do have there own laws and we are talking a gray area here lol ( no pun intended) I will just not pump anything over board and I know I will be right because nothing go overboard lol I got to make my state happy
Don't be afraid to attempt anything. You might surprise your self in the attempt.
http://www.facebook.com/Home.Made.Boat.Building
Bon Voyage-"Wild Flower" 40' house boat being built
14' Mr John-being built
32' Supper Huck-in design

Rod H

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El Jefe
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by El Jefe » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:37 am

Geeze, I wish my plans would get here. I figured a week was plenty of time, but my UPS tracking number doesn't show anything yet so I'm not overly optimistic. :roll:

I'm wanting to get my material lists created. A crude one comes with the study plans, but parts of it make no sense, so I'm hoping the info with the plans will be clearer.

On a positive note, I did locate a reman outfit from Ohio that remanufacture Perkins and Hercules/White diesel engines. One unit that I'm particularly interested in is a White model that generates 35hp at 1,800rpm. That would be close to perfect for the Fred Murphy. :idea:

On a humorous note: the White diesel engines are painted black! :o
Oh the humanity! :lol:

Rick

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El Jefe
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by El Jefe » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:42 am

Lowka53 wrote:oK ray you are quoting Federal law I stated the state of Utah they pretty much go with federal but they do have there own laws and we are talking a gray area here lol ( no pun intended) I will just not pump anything over board and I know I will be right because nothing go overboard lol I got to make my state happy
Whilst boating in Utah, you had best not even be able to pump anything overboard. Assuming they're anything like the Missouri Water Patrol. If they stop you and do a "safety check" and find you're dumping sewage overboard, I'm told the fine is a real number and you have to prove within a certain time limit that the issue has been rectified.

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Lowka53
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by Lowka53 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:15 am

El Jefe wrote:
Lowka53 wrote:oK ray you are quoting Federal law I stated the state of Utah they pretty much go with federal but they do have there own laws and we are talking a gray area here lol ( no pun intended) I will just not pump anything over board and I know I will be right because nothing go overboard lol I got to make my state happy
Whilst boating in Utah, you had best not even be able to pump anything overboard. Assuming they're anything like the Missouri Water Patrol. If they stop you and do a "safety check" and find you're dumping sewage overboard, I'm told the fine is a real number and you have to prove within a certain time limit that the issue has been rectified.
My point totally so I would check with your state to make sure.
Don't be afraid to attempt anything. You might surprise your self in the attempt.
http://www.facebook.com/Home.Made.Boat.Building
Bon Voyage-"Wild Flower" 40' house boat being built
14' Mr John-being built
32' Supper Huck-in design

Rod H

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El Jefe
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by El Jefe » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:32 pm

Woo hoo! :!:

Received my tug plans and the books I ordered. Now I have over the winter to get everything sorted out and get started on frames. :D

Rick

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raymacke
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by raymacke » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:53 pm

Rick - Let the journey begin!

I have spent a good amount of time searching and reading about laws and how they pertain to marine discharge. This subject tends to be both complex and opaque. I believe much of the confusion comes from the term "No Discharge Zone". The rules in these zones are normally addressing the discharge from the septic (blackwater) systems. There are 3 different levels of marine septic systems. Some actually treat the waste and then are allowed to discharge in some areas. But in No Discharge Zones NONE of the three can dump. Since Federal Law does not classify Graywater as a pollutant AND it is not spetic water "normally" discharge of graywater is allowed in all areas just not the septic water. (There are exceptions - see below).

Also, by law a state can not itself pass a regulation that is more stringent than Federal Law (TITLE 46, Subtitle II, Part B, CHAPTER 43, subsection 4306) without direct federal approval and they only seem to grant this is specific protected areas. The exception to this is boats classed as "houseboats" and states can pass laws more strict for them. The operative word in in federal law is "houseboat," which is defined in 33 U.S.C. 1322 as: "a vessel which, for a period of time determined by the State in which the vessel is located, is used primarily as a residence and is not used primarily as a means of transportation." So under this definition most likely any boat used as a full time live-aboard probably CAN be regulated by the state but not other types.

At first look you will find some states that appear to have blanket graywater bans (California for example) but if you look closer they normally are written to regulate only large cruise and passenger ships - not recreational boats. In fact, I could not find a single state that had a statewide ban on graywater discharge. (ie: not sure about Alaska)

But there are specific areas that do have Graywater bans. Lake George and Lake Champlain in New York are two and there are also several specific areas in the Great Lakes plus others I am sure. Many seen to think there is a graywater ban on all the Great Lakes but actually it only applies to large vessels. They have a serious problem with ocean going ships dumping ballast water carried in from remote locations and bring in unwanted marine life like Zebra mussels so this was banned. The law was originally written to ban ALL graywater but BoatUS mounted an effective lobbying campaign to have recreational boat exempted.

Also, it seems some marinas try to ban graywater discharge and often try to justify it by stating it is against the law. Usually it is not but winning the battle (particularly if you are a transient) may be not be worth the hassle.

So it appears graywater discharge is acceptable in most areas but not all. If in doubt check before you dump.

These are just my interpretations of my findings. Clearly I am no lawyer or expert so if there is a question for a specific area be sure to consult someone much more knowledgeable than myself.
Last edited by raymacke on Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....

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El Jefe
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by El Jefe » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:33 pm

Ray, nice work, as usual. Your findings mirror mine, gray water is no issue about 99% of the time. This makes sense to me, its logical. I'm not comfortable with the idea of dumping black water overboard, tho lots of people do it.

If I thought I'd find convenient pump out facilities at every gas dock I went by, I might consider a flush marine toilet, but they seem to be far and few between in this part of the world. I guess you might find them once you started getting to the marinas on the Tenn-Tom. (?)

Back to the issue of people dumping things overboard. A few years a go I read Voyaging on a Small Income, by Annie Hill. She often talks about doing things in a "green" manner, which is fine, but this is a woman who most of here adult life has dumped her sewage in the ocean. Green indeed. :? :lol:

Ray, you should see the stack of books I got in! Calder/Mechanical and Electrical Manual, Witt, Hankinson/Inboard Motor Installations, Witt/Boat Building with Plywood, Hankinson/How to Fiberglass Boats and Geer/Propeller Handbook. I'll probably need a few more, but these should get me started. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears! :) Also, I wouldn't recommend getting Calder's book on Kindle, you can't take advantage of the photos and diagrams and the whole layout is rather hinkey.

Right now as soon as the rain stops, I'll be working on my slapdash boat barn in the yard. Plus I intend to get some oak and a sheet of 3/4" MDO and build frames in the basement over the winter. I might do the stem too.

Rick

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raymacke
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by raymacke » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:51 pm

I'm not comfortable with the idea of dumping black water overboard, tho lots of people do it.
My wife and I still enjoy swimming whenever we are boating. Why in the world would I dump the head in there with us? Don't get anyone doing that. And yes, most of the marinas along the Tennessee, Cumberland and the Tenn Tom do have pump out facilities.

I have a 7" Samsung tablet with the the Kindle app and love the thing for my daily newspapers and novels. Get the newspapers "delivered" every morning even if I am setting in the middle of a river somewhere. But reference books are a different matter. It just doesn't have the flexibility when you want to flip back and forth looking at illustrations referenced in text several/many pages forward or back. Just ordered Nigel Calder's "How to Read a Nautical Chart - A Complete Guide to Using and Understanding Electronic and Paper Charts" from Amazon but got the paper version not the Kindle. Downloaded the sample to the tablet but could tell the paper version was just going to suit me better.
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....

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El Jefe
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by El Jefe » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:35 pm

Ray, I'd be interested in hearing what you learn from the navigation book. I'm planing to Down load gps and a chartploter on my iPad. I think that and a good VHF radio should get me started. I don't think I'll look at radar until I get into the gulf and beyond.

Rick

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raymacke
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by raymacke » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:25 pm

Charts for inland rivers and lakes are fairly straight forward and don't require much explanation. Once on the intercoastal waterway or more open water it changes and at least to me becomes more complex. Hence the purchase of the book to help me sort through this. Still several years until we plan to launch on the "Big Trip" where I will need this info but thought the winter months would be a good time to start getting a better understanding of the process. I'll let you know about the book.
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....

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El Jefe
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Re: Fred Murphy tug boat.

Post by El Jefe » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:27 am

raymacke wrote:Charts for inland rivers and lakes are fairly straight forward and don't require much explanation. Once on the intercoastal waterway or more open water it changes and at least to me becomes more complex. Hence the purchase of the book to help me sort through this. Still several years until we plan to launch on the "Big Trip" where I will need this info but thought the winter months would be a good time to start getting a better understanding of the process. I'll let you know about the book.
Ray, and anyone else interested, I've been reading this guys site a bit. He covers a lot of the navigation apps available for the Apple platforms and Android.

http://i-marineapps.blogspot.com/

Rick

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