Catastrophe

A forum for contacting other builders of Ken Hankinson designs. These designs are now a part of the Glen-L family.

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ToddM
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Catastrophe

Postby ToddM » Fri May 19, 2017 5:58 pm

I bought a set of plans. Nuff said, right?

Here are the first of many questions:
What is the "hull weight" that is shown on the study plans and boat description? I googled it, and just got some inexact answers. Kinda like no one has decided what it actually means or is standardized. "Edge of Traveled Way" in my biz may mean one thing to one contractor, and another thing to an engineer. The person who is always right is the land surveyor. Is hull weight before the deck is added? It almost certainly means before the engine is installed. Is the hull weight what you should know before you decide on how you are going to turn the boat over?

It looks like the plans call to build a wood frame on which to place the boat frames and build the boat. Has anybody ever made that building frame mobile or movable, on wheels? And if so, how did they re-level the building frame each time they moved the frame and boat?

Why do I want to move it? Cuz, it will only fit in my garage diagonally, and in order to work on it, I will have to move it partially out of the garage each time. And the driveway is sloped, so the building frame will have to be leveled/aligned each time. Weather is not a concern. We are in Southern California.

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Catastrophe

Postby Bill Edmundson » Fri May 19, 2017 6:36 pm

Todd

There is only one answer to your questions. Yes. Your choice of woods changes the weight. Your choice of engines changes the weight. There is no one answer! Nothing in this is exact!

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

Soloboat
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Location: Orange CA

Re: Catastrophe

Postby Soloboat » Fri May 19, 2017 7:10 pm

many have built mobile building forms initial leveling is important establish reference points and you are good to go unless the form is racked severely so build it stout
) Champagne dreams and wishes are possible on a beer budget. Just build the boat.
Nice curves are easy on the eyes.
Go sell crazy somewhere else we're all stocked up here."As Good As It Gets" Jack Nicholson.

Hercdrvr
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Location: McKinney TX

Re: Catastrophe

Postby Hercdrvr » Fri May 19, 2017 7:26 pm

My form was on casters. I always preferred to roll it outside, kept the dust out of the garage. Worked outside Lots of winter days in Texas. I guess if I rolled it onto some serious uneven surface it would distort the building form. I did make a little semi Permanent ramp over the lip from garage to driveway so I wasn't banging the thing around.
Hope this isn't bad advise,
Matt B
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IMG_0783.JPG
caster under stem never held any weight

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Andy Garrett
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Location: Nampa, Idaho

Re: Catastrophe

Postby Andy Garrett » Sat May 20, 2017 5:56 am

The word 'catastrophe' had me concerned.

First: 'Abandon all hope ye who enter here.' Just get the word "exact" out of you mind when working on your boat. It's as much art as science. For me, it was a series of 'fixes'. There was what the plans said to do, and there was how I chose to do it. For me, plans were a roadmap, but I chose the route--nothing exact about it. I just kept asking myself, "If I do this, will it still float?" If the answer was yes, I usually did it.

Hull weights: To my mind this included what the plans detailed--nothing more. I built the Zip, so my stripped hull, with no motor-well, no seating, no engine, no instruments, no helm, sub-deck only, and no fiberglass, built in mahogany and marine ply weighed something close to what the number suggested. I actually have no idea what my finished boat weights but my guess is 900-1000lbs. I could be way off.

I bolted my form to the garage floor with masonry screws, but if I were to build a mobile form, I might establish precise points at my alternate location to affix the form to when there. If I had casters and a rolling form, I'd build in much more rigidity with additional diagonal bracing on every axis to avoid flex. I'd also use wire strategically as a visual aid to know when I have unwanted flex or twist (slack wires indicate flex). This would be my last choice.
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

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Jimbob
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Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Catastrophe

Postby Jimbob » Sat May 20, 2017 9:13 am

This is what I did for my building form. I built my form with the idea of adding caster assemblies later. With that in mind I felt that the form would have to be especially rigid. I used bolts and fender washers so that I could really tighten them down rather than using lag screws. The bolts paid off when the form was removed and dissembled later. I built the width around where the motor stringers would be so I had a tight fit when they were attached later. I built most of the hull substructure without the casters attached. I could still scoot the form around in my garage. One thing that I did which I think is against the "rules" is that I didn't level my form. I did however, make sure that the form was accurate in every detail. When building the boat, I relied on using squares, and accurate measurements. Everything turned out just fine.

People have been talking about accuracy on boats. I had a difficult time with building the boat after making precise furniture. On a boat, my rule is, it is more important to be symmetrical. There are only a few areas where things are straight and square.

Some pics below.

Jim
Attachments
P1010062.JPG
the completed form without the casters
20150517_151633 .jpg
the form with the casters
Jim Neeley
Building a Barrelback in Sacramento, CA
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=28089#p172969

ToddM
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Re: Catastrophe

Postby ToddM » Sat May 20, 2017 1:03 pm

DUH me! Of course the weight will defer depending upon the weight of the materials used. Don't know why I didn't think of that. The motivation behind the question is mostly to figure out what load rating I need for the casters that will go under the building form. I am guess ing that if the hull weight is about 900 lbs. then I need about 300 lb. per caster for 3 casters and a 400 lb. rating for each will be fine.

Great idea on the ramp for the garage lip. I was worried about that, and I didn't even have to ask.

Actually, great ideas all around. This is very helpful.

Gotta go! Postman just dropped off the plans. :D

TomB
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Location: Holland, MI

Re: Catastrophe

Postby TomB » Sun May 21, 2017 5:15 am

Todd,

I would beef it up a little.

For the movable forms - Think about a box beam to keep the form ridged from end to end. That way you stand a better chance of avoiding a sag or hump in the middle as you set up in different places.

For the casters – Think about how the load impacts the casters. Three sets, ok, will there ever be a dip where they only rest on two sets? As you are pushing things around, catch a little something, push harder, putting a big load on one caster and maybe at an angle to collapse something. And, bigger diameter casters roll easier.

I can’t remember my college professor’s name for attribution but I do remember the quote, “you can only design it too weak.” :wink:

Tom

Nova SS
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Re: Catastrophe

Postby Nova SS » Sun May 21, 2017 6:08 am

just one thought about the casters. Soft rubber wheels work better then hard rubber wheels. In my experience rolling heavy tool boxes around with the hard wheels they jamb up on anything they have to run over like a pebble while the soft wheels will roll over such things. Make sure your casters are the locking type as it will make bending your chines etc easier if the build frame stays in place. Well I guess that was two thoughts about the casters...lol

Hercdrvr
Posts: 415
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Location: McKinney TX

Re: Catastrophe

Postby Hercdrvr » Sun May 21, 2017 6:52 am

Agreed, locking casters are a must and don't skimp on the size. Go heavy duty, as the boat gets heavier youll be thankful you did. I used hard rubber wheels and they do get locked up on the smallest of debris on the floor. Pneumatic tires would be great as long as you kept the pressure up.

I actually used my building form after the flip too. 10 minute job trimming it down a foot and put the boat right back on it, right side up. Worked well until I found a trailer.

Matt B
Attachments
IMG_1053.JPG

ToddM
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Re: Catastrophe

Postby ToddM » Sun May 21, 2017 8:36 am

Jimbob wrote:People have been talking about accuracy on boats. I had a difficult time with building the boat after making precise furniture. On a boat, my rule is, it is more important to be symmetrical. There are only a few areas where things are straight and square.

Jim


To those who apprised me about building a boat not being exact: THANKS! I most certainly would have panicked if I had not read your forewarnings. There are no dimensions on the frames. There are no angles and distances, or station and offsets, or even coordinates for the frames. And there is no pattern for the transom frame, just the transom plywood. This is not a complaint. Just an observation, and a realization that the artistic necessities will take some getting use to.

ToddM
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Re: Catastrophe

Postby ToddM » Sun May 21, 2017 8:40 am

TomB wrote:Todd,
Think about a box beam to keep the form ridged from end to end. That way you stand a better chance of avoiding a sag or hump in the middle as you set up in different places.

For the casters – Think about how the load impacts the casters. Three sets, ok, will there ever be a dip where they only rest on two sets? As you are pushing things around, catch a little something, push harder, putting a big load on one caster and maybe at an angle to collapse something. And, bigger diameter casters roll easier.

I can’t remember my college professor’s name for attribution but I do remember the quote, “you can only design it too weak.” :wink:

Tom


Great idea about the box beam. I was concerned of how much beefing up I was going to have to do if the form did not sit directly on the concrete. but a box beam is a wonderful solution.

Actually, I was thinking of 3 casters, not 3 sets. And only having 3 casters will make the load rating on the casters pretty important.

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Catastrophe

Postby Bill Edmundson » Sun May 21, 2017 9:14 am

Todd

This is what I do on the frames and fairing. Cut fat of the line. Go to the big box store and buy a long piece of thin molding. You will sand/plane/fair every frame to a bevel to some level. Use the molding to see that bevel until you get a smooth curve without gaps.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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sproggy
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Location: Welwyn Garden City, UK

Re: Catastrophe

Postby sproggy » Sun May 21, 2017 11:14 am

ToddM wrote:There are no dimensions on the frames. There are no angles and distances, or station and offsets, or even coordinates for the frames. And there is no pattern for the transom frame, just the transom plywood


I don't know what plans you have but all three that i have seen show frame dimensions (not on the full-sized sheet - on one/two of the other ones) and they also state the angle at the sides/bottom of the transom to assist with sizing the transom frame based upon the transom dimensions. But just cut it over-size and then fair later, as others have said. All three plans that I have include transom frame designs. Take a lot of time to study every inch of every plan sheet - there's a lot of information on there and knowing it will pay off later.

ToddM
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Re: Catastrophe

Postby ToddM » Tue May 23, 2017 8:00 am

sproggy wrote:
ToddM wrote:There are no dimensions on the frames. There are no angles and distances, or station and offsets, or even coordinates for the frames. And there is no pattern for the transom frame, just the transom plywood


I don't know what plans you have but all three that i have seen show frame dimensions (not on the full-sized sheet - on one/two of the other ones) and they also state the angle at the sides/bottom of the transom to assist with sizing the transom frame based upon the transom dimensions. But just cut it over-size and then fair later, as others have said. All three plans that I have include transom frame designs. Take a lot of time to study every inch of every plan sheet - there's a lot of information on there and knowing it will pay off later.


I have the Tahoe plans, and they consist of the large pattern page, and sheets 1 - 4 of "Tahoe - 19 plans. Other than some a few dimensions on sheet 2, the frames are not dimensioned. When you say, "transom frame designs", are you referring to the pattern sheet?


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