Key Largo Build in Charleston

A forum for contacting other builders of Ken Hankinson designs. These designs are now a part of the Glen-L family.

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mickfly
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby mickfly » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:34 am

I thought I would post a picture of a tool I "borrowed" from my Dad about 35 years ago. These "horseshoe" pliers are so handy, I keep them in my tool belt at all times. They are great for a lot of common shop tasks, but on the build I use them for pulling staples. The shape of the head allows me to easily lever the staples out without marring the surface. I'll have to keep a close eye on them so my sons don't "borrow" them.
Attachments
horseshoe pliers.jpg

mickfly
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby mickfly » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:09 pm

I'm getting close to the shaft bore. I don't have an engine, yet, but I assume I need to bore the shaft hole before glassing and before the flip?
My thought process:

-place the strut and rudder based on the positions in the plans
-use the strut placement to bore the shaft hole, making sure the shaft will pass through the slot built into frame 2. I'll use a 1" shafted drill extension (basically a 3/8 drill chuck fitted into a 1" steel rod with a 1/4 pin on the drill side) and a "hull block" to guide the bit.
-I have a 1 3/8 forstner bit for a 1" shaft
-epoxy, glass, paint and flip.

Also, I've seen a couple of folks offset the rudder. Can someone tell me why that's done and how it might compare to a centerline rudder? I assume the offset might have to do with propeller rotation? Since I don't have my motor, I'm not certain where to offset, but I am planning for a starboard side helm...so I buy an engine that produces a clockwise or counter clockwise shaft rotation? And offset the rudder..."

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby Bill Edmundson » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:43 pm

Be sure to try and keep the cutless bearing in the strut wet/lubricated(It doesn't take much.).

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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kens
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby kens » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:46 pm

mickfly wrote:I'm getting close to the shaft bore. I don't have an engine, yet, but I assume I need to bore the shaft hole before glassing and before the flip?
My thought process:

-place the strut and rudder based on the positions in the plans
-use the strut placement to bore the shaft hole, making sure the shaft will pass through the slot built into frame 2. I'll use a 1" shafted drill extension (basically a 3/8 drill chuck fitted into a 1" steel rod with a 1/4 pin on the drill side) and a "hull block" to guide the bit.
-I have a 1 3/8 forstner bit for a 1" shaft
-epoxy, glass, paint and flip.

Also, I've seen a couple of folks offset the rudder. Can someone tell me why that's done and how it might compare to a centerline rudder? I assume the offset might have to do with propeller rotation? Since I don't have my motor, I'm not certain where to offset, but I am planning for a starboard side helm...so I buy an engine that produces a clockwise or counter clockwise shaft rotation? And offset the rudder..."

Prop rotation kinda depends on the transmission you choose. Standard engines turn CCW and it is a premium price to buy a CW engine.
IF, you use a 1:1 VelvetDrive, the transmission output is same as engine input rotation (when properly setup)
IF, you use a ZF down angle tranny or similar, you are mandated to use a CCW engine, and then output rotation is builders choice.
Yes, you drill from the strut as the drill guide, and I used every kind of drill I could find, forstner, hole saw, you name it. you are drilling a big hole into end grain and it aint easy. I liked hole saw the best.
Rudder offset helps you attain a neutral rudder when you are up and running.(offset torque steer) I have an old article in the old newsletter archives.
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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Jimbob
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby Jimbob » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:53 pm

Here is what I did on my barrelback.
First determine where to mount the rudder.
Next determine where prop will go.
From that, determine where the strut will be mounted. I used a wood dowel to mount everything in place.
To drill the hole I used the setup that Will Manwaring used. (see pic below) You can get the extensions with chucks and the bit from Lowes. I added a longer drill bit to the forstner bit for additional guidance for the bit.
I took the strut to the hardware store to get a copper reducers that fit snug into the strut and snug on the drill bit extension. That became the bearing for the drill extensions with the chuck. I bought a cheap slow, plugin drill from HFT to use to drill the hole. It's a slow process. I would suggest putting a block on the inside of the keel so the bit drills through straight and doesn't create tearout.
The process was scary for me, but it turned out to be no big deal.
Pics below
Jim
Attachments
20150428_195121 (1).jpg
Here's the setup
20150502_114951.jpg
Local Proctoiogist drilling the hole. (they are good at that)
Jim Neeley
Building a Barrelback in Sacramento, CA
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=28089#p172969

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kens
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby kens » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:03 am

The backer on the inside to prevent tearout is a good idea.
I did a practice run on a 2x6 to actually see and measure where the hole comes out on the inside, when you measure from the outside. (dont forget about planking thickness)
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

Brad Tucker
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Location: Washington, GA

Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby Brad Tucker » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:01 pm

Be SURE to place a backer block on the inside, especially with a forstner bit. If you don't, the bit will begin deflecting as soon as it begins passing through.

mickfly
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby mickfly » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:52 am

Thanks all...backer boards...good idea.

Jim...can you tell me what prop you ordered...or how you arrived at your prop choice? I don't have mine yet, but it looks like I'll need it for the set up...

Bill...my strut has a hexagonal rubber sleeve. It won't easily accept a 1" dowel so I didn't force it. Is there where the water lube is required or the bearing underneath? Just squirting or spraying some water during the boring process?

Kens... I went back and read dozens of posts on offset...they went back and forth and were confusing, but here is what I've come up with.
I will get a CCW/left hand motor, and offset my rudder one shaft width to the right. Please see the drawing below to see if I have it right

Jim...I see you did not offset the rudder. Anything in particular that led you to that choice?
Attachments
rudder offset drawing.jpg
Projected offset of rudder with CCW prop rotation?

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Jimbob
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby Jimbob » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:12 am

In answer to your questions:
I ordered the prop from glen l as specified in the plans. If I recall the marine engines normally have a L.H. rotation.
I didn't have the bearing in the strut when I drilled the hole. The copper reducers fit into the strut snugly without the bearing.
The bearing was only in place when I had the wood dowel in place for alignment.
I didn't offset the rudder or change the helm to the port side of the boat. I figured that if the boat veers one way I will correct as I am driving with the steering. (hope I'm right)
Jim

p.s. If you want my reducer bearings, send me a pm and I will send them to you.
Jim Neeley
Building a Barrelback in Sacramento, CA
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=28089#p172969

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby Bill Edmundson » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:36 am

Mickfly

I think your diagram is wrong. Left rotation puts the helm on the Left/Port/Red side. With left rotation the prop-walk will always be to the Right/starboard/Green side. The offset should be to the right to try to counter the right tendency. The torque of the prop will try to lift the port side of the boat. So, the helm is placed to counter the torque.

BTW: Left, port and red are all shorter words than right, starboard and green. It's an easy way to remember.

I have left rotation and my boat slip is on the right, coming into the marina. I find it easier to go past the slip, turn the wheel to the left, and back into the slip. I alternate forward and back to make the boat rotate under control. Going out, I loop the bow line around the piling and "warp" the boat to the left.

Somebody please call BS, if I did that wrong. It has been a long time.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

mickfly
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby mickfly » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:39 pm

Thanks Jim...and Bill.

Bill... just to clarify...If I move the helm to the left on my drawing, that makes it correct?

That is, a left prop, right rudder offset, and left helm?

I've never driven a left helm boat, that will be kinda cool. Since my pickup truck is a "left helm," it should be an easy adjustment. :)

Mick

RIP Ken Hankinson

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby Bill Edmundson » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:24 pm

Mick

The prop will be on the right side of the rudder. The biggest reason for the offset is getting the prop off without pulling the rudder. Be sure you have enough distance from the end of the shaft to the rudder to get the prop off.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

TomB
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Location: Holland, MI

Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby TomB » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:27 pm

Mick,

Here's a pretty good source for rudder placement...www.glen-l.com/weblettr/webletters-4/wl38-rudders.html Also take a look at plate 59 for rudder offset.
rudder.jpg


Engine rotation is viewed from the flywheel end. Standard rotation is LH or CCW. So without a non-standard engine, or a transmission that turns full force both ways, or a V-drive?, or an old ChrisCraft that has the tranny on the front (I'm probably missing some other exceptions) the helm is located on the port side.

Then turn it all upside down...and drill holes...maybe oar locks would be better. :shock:

Tom

mickfly
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby mickfly » Tue May 01, 2018 1:32 pm

Jim

Where did you get that forstner bit with the twist drill lead? That's a great addition...and gives the best chance of a straight bore.

I see that our Lowe's has the Irwin's extensions...so I'm going to stop on my way home.

I assume you had to move the copper as the drill advanced? It also appears that you drilled a 1 3/4 hole. Are you planning on an insert for the shaft hole? I was thinking just epoxy, but there's so many "right ways" to do these things.

Mick

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Jimbob
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Re: Key Largo Build in Charleston

Postby Jimbob » Tue May 01, 2018 4:13 pm

They sell the bits at Lowes. I forget what they are called they are like a forstner but but have a removable guide bit. I took out the boring bit they had in it, and replaced it with a long standard bit to help guide the bit better.
I used a larger bit because I epoxied a fiberglass tube into the hole for the prop shaft hole and the rudder hole. It was a tube that is used for Ham radio antennas. I got it from DX Engineering. I did have to move the copper fittings around as I drilled.
Be careful in selection the extensions I had to go through 3 or 4 of them till I found two that didn't wobble. ( they ain't precision instruments )
Jim
Attachments
20150509_082720.jpg
Here's a picture of the insert in place
Jim Neeley
Building a Barrelback in Sacramento, CA
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=28089#p172969


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