Rudder authority

A forum for contacting other builders of Ken Hankinson designs. These designs are now a part of the Glen-L family.

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Brian
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Rudder authority

Post by Brian » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:36 am

I'm building a Monte Carlo, which is a 24.5' boat in the plans. I have stretched it to 27'. The rudder is the one the plans recommend, from Glen-L. But when I look at it, now that the boat is almost finished, I'm wondering if I should have shopped for a bigger one. The reality is, I will put the boat in the water this summer for lake trials, and that will tell. I'm pretty sure that, at 30-50, the rudder will be fine for the slow turns the boat would make at those speeds. I'm more worried about having slow maneuverability at a marina, dock, or ramp.This is a long, single-screw hull, and I really don't want to bang it up. If slow maneuverability turns out to be a problem, would it be better to have a shop add some bronze to the trailing edge, or just go find a bigger one? Anyone play with rudder sizes and shapes?

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billy c
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by billy c » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:37 am

I’d try it as designed first. An inboard generally will not initiate a turn until there is water flow on the rudder. Usually a quick application of throttle initiates the process. If you find that you need more immediate turn a forward motion to put the bow in the opposite direction of the turn before operating astern is appropriate. Last if you want a less loose feel adding a fin at about the center of balance will let your boat pivot around this point making your maneuver quicker. I prefer the looser feel because docking you can initiate direction and side slip your hull easily into smaller areas. Again personal preference but time on the helm needed before these skills become routine.
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by Bill Edmundson » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:11 am

I have a wedge rudder. I'm not happy with it. I can control the boat in the marina. You really have to learn to use prop walk and the gears. You can't just let anyone at the helm. In and out of a slip can be a challenge on a windy day. Please don't help me until I ask.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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kens
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by kens » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:25 pm

Your size of rudder might already been made for you. you have to check.
Rudder sizes from suppliers like Buck Algonquin, have a blade size range for a given size rudder post.
If by chance you already have the largest blade for your given size post, then you cannot replace any bigger without installing larger rudder port, larger flange, etc, then the bolt patterns get bigger, and so on.
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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jamundsen
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by jamundsen » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:22 am

I have a Monte Carlo
Maneuvering in close quarters can be challenging. I’m looking at a stern thruster. Maybe I’ll have it done by the Gathering.
John Amundsen
Monte Carlo
Lakeland,Fl

Work tends to get in the way of boat building

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Roberta
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by Roberta » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:43 pm

The Monte Carlo shows a 90-016 rudder from Glenwood. That rudder is 7-1/2" by 12-1/2" with a 1-1/8" rudder port shaft and will need a 1-1/8" rudder port.

Glen L stocks an 8-1/2" by 13" rudder with a 1" rudder shaft and would need a 1" rudder port. Part # 90-016M

You do not state what rudder you have. If it is an older Glenwood rudder, the # 16 or the old Glen L # 90-016, these have 1-1/8" shafts.

If you have the newer one (Glen L # 90-016M), you already have the largest rudder you can get with either a 1" or 1-1/8" shaft, like Ken mentioned. To get a bigger rudder, you would need to go to a 1-1/4" rudder port. Your keel might not take that.

The newer style that Glen L sells can be gotten with a 1-1/8" shaft, if you have an older 7-1/2" rudder with the 1-1/8" shaft and want the larger 13" by 8-1/2" rudder. That way you can still use the 1-1/8" port, if that is what you have. Call Gayle and I'm sure she can work it out for you.

Inboards are a lot different to maneuver than an outboard. At first I was having trouble docking my Torpedo, But you do learn and they aren't difficult to dock once you get used to the way they turn and how to manipulate the throttle, helm, and transmission to best maneuver.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

Brian
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by Brian » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:35 am

Thanks, all. I'm not looking forward to the learning curve, sweating bullets in tight spaces. I may paddle it out of the Sierra Boat marina, where it is going to be christened! They guys there tell me to stick with what I've got until I get it in the water, and if necessary, a rudder can be custom built (on my shaft size)....for about $1,000!! Fingers crossed I won't have to write that check.

I bought a small Lewmar bow thruster and built the bow structure to accommodate it. But before I cut those big holes in the forward bottom, I called Lewmar, because my measurements for the best location I could get were a little shy of their minimums. They strongly recommended I NOT install it. So I still have it, if anyone's interested. After I abandoned the idea, I saw a new Hacker (I think) with the bow riding out of the water and the big (oval) holes. Just took the whole classic look away from the boat, IMHO. While building, I tried to think of all sorts of other ways of getting some side force, either at the bow or the stern, and came up with nothing. I think there is a unit that drops out of the bottom, which might be installed in the aft floor, but not for small boats, and very complex. My current plan is to get my son and son-in-law into their wetsuits and fins and put them in the water!

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billy c
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by billy c » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:10 am

Brian, glad you are trying the boat as built. Just get as much practice time in as you can in an area that is newbie friendly and then come back with your questions. I'm sure we can help you out.
Billy
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

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kens
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by kens » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:37 am

I looked at some Buck Algonquin catalog, and the rudder you got is already nearly as big as available. You would have to step up to 1 1/4" rudder post to get a standard rudder noticibly bigger.
Inboards handle better if there is a skeg, keel, or on a mahogany a skid fin. The skeg, keel, or fin gives the front end somewhat of a pivot point for the rudder to react to.
I think you will be fine, just get used to the handling of a inboard, then if the bow wants to dance around on you, put a fin on it.

I got a Buck 10x14 rudder and it is not rudder authority lacking, it is the bow wanting to swing around on me, especially in windy days.(when in reverse)
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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Jimbob
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by Jimbob » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:11 pm

You'll get used to your boat with practice. Lots of shifting in and out of gear and coasting. Reverse can be used for breaking. I always put the fenders on the boat before I approach a dock. Take them off only After you are away from the dock. For extra insurance, get yourself a boat hook that can be used to push away from the dock if you are coming in too fast. You can also use the boat hook to pull the boat towards the dock rather than using power. The length of boat hooks sold are generally adjustable. Also don't forget, your passengers can help push away from the dock if you come in "hot" , and help in final positioning. Most of your final docking will be done at drifting speed. Larger fenders may ease your fears.
Jim
Jim Neeley
Building a Barrelback in Sacramento, CA
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=28089#p172969

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Roberta
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by Roberta » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:48 pm

Jim is exactly right.

Roberta :D
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by Bill Edmundson » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:53 pm

First: If you put the helm on the traditional starboard side (right), You need a righthand rotation prop. Because of prop-walk, your boat will want to rotate clockwise. This is a pain if you are trying to get into a boat slip on the left side. You will back in to those slips. Turn the rudder hard right. You then go in and out of forward and reverse to control your backing. If you have left helm, it its just the opposite.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

bob smith
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Re: Rudder authority

Post by bob smith » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:53 am

A big AMEN on the boathook.
Bob Smith
Chester, SC

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