Virginia Barrel

A forum for contacting other builders of Ken Hankinson designs. These designs are now a part of the Glen-L family.

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CoreyT
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Virginia Barrel

Post by CoreyT »

I’ve never worked with epoxy before. Is there a specific type to use for the transom, sheet, chime, battens etc? I’ve heard west system is the popular choice but also hear there are other types for specific applications.

Also not sure why and I’ve read it a couple times but what’s the purpose of the 12 degree bevel all around on the transom? When it says all around I’m understanding it as it reads which is to cut 12 degrees all around the transom but that doesn’t make sense to me.
Last edited by CoreyT on Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JimmY
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by JimmY »

For most kinds of construction, you want a thickened epoxy that will fill gaps such as Poxy-Grip. You can also use a thinner epoxy and add fillers (silica, flox, microballoons, etc...). If you go the filler route, mix the epoxy, apply unthickened to both parts, add the filler, apply thickened epoxy, clamp parts together. I've used West Systems in the past (not for boat building), and it is a good quality product. I think it will have to be thickened to help hold it in place while it cures. Only difference you may need is the cure time (slow or fast) depending on how large of an assembly you are working with and how long you will need to apply the epoxy and get it all together.

For glassing and encapsulating you want a thin epoxy that will soak in, flow out, and wet out the cloth. For this application I recommend System 3 Silver Tip, since it is a no-blush epoxy and will save you some work.
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

CoreyT
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by CoreyT »

Thanks Jim that helps guide me in the direction I need to go. Don’t know if you can answer the question on the transom I had but it’s got me somewhat confused.
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TomB
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Location: Holland, MI

Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by TomB »

Corey,

I use MAS epoxy, no blush, 2 to 1 mix, no smell, different set up speeds and viscosities. I use sanding dust and silica thickeners when needed.

The boat tapers toward the stern. The transom plywood is bigger on the forward side of the plywood. The pattern for the transom is drawn on the aft side of the plywood.

Tom
In the home stretch on a Tahoe 23

DavO
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Location: McKinney, TX

Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by DavO »

My advice/warning is to make sure that there are no air gaps between the layers and that everything is joined. Thickened epoxy and/or covering both sides with epoxy should help. You are going to spend a lot of money on epoxy, and there is nothing wrong with having many different types of epoxy on hand for different projects, as mentioned above. I made a mistake of using up my Poxy Shield (thinner epoxy), which I had on hand, on a portion of the boat that should have had Poxy Grip (thicker), and ended up with air gaps. I had to remove and start over. I believe that if I had properly thickened the Poxy Shield, that could have prevented the problem too.

That said, in my experience, there has been a few do-overs. Part of the process since I am new to this stuff.

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Jimbob
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by Jimbob »

Hi Corey,
I had the same question on the transom when I started my barrelback. The answer was "just make it larger, don't worry about the angle." If I remember correctly, I cut mine 1/4" larger. Any angle is determined once you attach the battens and fair everything to the shape that the battens make.

In terms of epoxy, I kept it simple. I got Poxygrip ( its a glen-L product, it's thick with no need for added fillers.) for gluing things together. (easy 1 to 1 mix ratio.), and Silver Tip System 3 for encapsulation and to use with the fiberglass cloth. With the system 3, you can get different speeds of hardener. It also has an easy 2 to 1 mix ratio. I mixed by volume, measuring and putting the two components into separate cups and then mixing the two cups into the working cup. Some guys measure by weight, but I think volume works just fine. I would suggest getting your epoxy from glen L. They also have a nice fiberglass kit.

Jim
Jim Neeley
Building a Barrelback in Sacramento, CA
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Hercdrvr
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Location: McKinney TX

Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by Hercdrvr »

I had to think about your 12 degree question, The Barrelback is a very narrow boat at the transom, the 12 degrees is about the angle it widens moving forward. As mentioned in a previous reply, I would leave the camber boards long and finish out the angle later. I would even say, it’s just part of fairing the boat.

Two kinds of Epoxy in my world, PoxyGrip for joints and no blush SilverTip for encapsulation and fiberglass.
Matt B

mickfly
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by mickfly »

I set up my band saw at ~12 degrees and cut the transom (and reinforcing beams), with a partner helping me. Then I added the camber boards and faired all.

As said in a previous post, the 12 degrees is the correct angle for the battens and ultimately the planking to make a smooth transition forward. I'm certain that you can fair it all afterward, but I did not want to plane the edges of the plywood to get it to the correct angle. The bandsaw got me close...I had to rasp a few spots and fill with thickened epoxy in some others. I ran an angle gauge around the perimeter to make sure it was close to 12 all around the curved portion.

I am on my 7th coat of varnish on the back deck and barrel...it, I can humbly assert, looks very cool! .

CoreyT
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by CoreyT »

Sounds like I have a couple options based on the feedback. Either plane it or use a bandsaw. I think I’ll hand plane it as I am a 1 man band and for me trying to keep the transom steady on the band saw and maintaining the 12 degrees would be difficult but an option. As far as epoxy I bought a small batch of west system epoxy to hold me over until I order some proxy grip. I didn’t realize proxy grip was exclusive to glen-l. I went into the store asking for proxy grip and they said they had no idea what I was talking about. So if I read correctly I can use the west system for junction points but the proxy grip is the same stuff but easier to use. For encapsulation if frames I should proxy shield. Am I off in this assumption based of everyone’s responses? Thanks for the feedback as well.
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mickfly
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by mickfly »

I used poxy grip for the first half of my build. It's great stuff. Someone put me on to Gel-magic. Gel magic is easy to use and measure. It has a blue base and amber hardener...the blue disappears as you mix it, but I always mix it much longer than that anyway. I've used Gel magic for the remainder of my build. Gel magic is more expensive but I opted for it because of it's convenience and ease of use.

For coating and glassing, Glen-L has poxy shield, which is a good product. I used it on my sail boat build in 2008 and the glass is still going strong (stored outside). I've also used RAKA epoxy, which is a good value.

Whatever you use, be mindful of batch size, especially during summer heat. An expensive pot of epoxy can kick over if you can't get it applied in good order. I put small batches of base and hardener (poxy shield or gel magic) on separate paper plates, keeping the two apart on each plate until I'm ready to use them. That way you don't have to keep going back to the mixing table and you don't risk losing a batch if you are not quite ready to use the glue. I buy measuring spoons at the dollar store and use them to make small, (1/2 tsp) moderate (teaspoon) to "large" (tablespoon) batches. Gel magic is 2 (base) to 1 (hardener). I can't remember what mixing ratio you use for poxy grip...

Epoxy is relatively fool-proof if you measure accurately and mix well...

Mick

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mrintense
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by mrintense »

For encapsulation, also be mindful of the amine blush from poxy shield. This needs to be washed off before sanding or bonding after the previous coat has cured. It's waxy feeling but washes off readily with warm soapy water. Alternatively, you can buy non blushing epoxy for encapsulation.
Carl

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise

Clipper Boating

CoreyT
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by CoreyT »

So I was dry fitting the frames into my motor stringers when I realized that I put gussets on both sides of frames 6&7 when it only says put gussets aft of frames. Is there a problem I may encounter in the future if I were to leave it as is? I’ve scrolled through a lot of pictures of other boats and haven’t seen anything yet?
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TomB
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by TomB »

Corey,

See sheet 3 Construction Profile. Both frames 6 & 7 attach to the stem, frame 6 to the end of the stem and frame 7 to the stem step. By having a gusset on both sides of frame 6, the stem will be the thickness of frame timber plus one gusset too far forward. The frame timbers where spaced apart provide a notch for the stem. Without the notch, you will be relying on the fasteners to take all the stress on the joints during the build.

Tom
In the home stretch on a Tahoe 23

CoreyT
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by CoreyT »

It’s not much but got some frames 1/2 encapsulated. Also got 1 stringer finished with 1 side laminated with 3/8 inch marine ply. Hopefully be able to flip the frames over and finish up encapsulating and finish the other stringer. I didn’t understand why I needed to laminate the 3/8 inch ply to the strings until I read some post in the forum and then went back to the instructions and seen why. From what it sounds like there is a lot of debate about stringers, but from what I understand the ply is to prevent the stringer from splitting so really it provides the stringer with more strength. Anyway it’s on there per the plans. Still haven’t figured out what I’m going to do about my mistake in putting a gusset on both side of frame 6 when it only calls for one aft. I was thinking I’d cut out the gusset enough to allow the stem to fit properly but not remove the whole gusset. My worry is I’d destroy the frame trying to remove that gusset.
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CoreyT
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Re: Virginia Barrel

Post by CoreyT »

Ok so I figured the best way for me to get the extra gusset out without destroying the frame was to simply cut them out and then when I encapsulate them the epoxy will fill in the scars.
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