23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

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Rich Coey
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Rich Coey »

Does the bow come down lower the faster you go? Depending on the rake of the prop it can lift the stern and push the bow down. My Monaco does this. With the vertical bow it can act like a rudder if is too low in the water. If you watch most classic boats go through the water they ride bow high and the water is hitting back behind the bow. If the bow is riding to low at higher speeds a bow lifting prop could help. also like mentioned above check the back half of the hull to make sure it is straight, if it hooks down that will also cause the bow down the faster you go.

Rich

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Roberta
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Roberta »

For sure post a picture of the rudder. That sounds like the blade is too wide. Also, what type of steering do you have? A boat that big should have hydraulic steering. Cables can be too loose and an oversized rudder could be an issue creating instability.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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Roberta
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Roberta »

Like Rich mentioned, bow attitude is important. Too high and you porpoise. Too low and you are plowing the water. See if you can get a picture of the boat on plane at various speeds.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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billy c
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by billy c »

Not that the rudder is the problem (or the only one), but depending on rudder shape, that sounds large for that narrow lightweight hull. You might be getting lift, loosening the stern, especially if you don't have a full fuel tank or passengers in the 3rd cockpit. Someone experienced with inboard boat handling that can get out on the water with you may narrow it down quicker and safer.
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

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kens
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by kens »

Roberta wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:46 pm
For sure post a picture of the rudder. That sounds like the blade is too wide. Also, what type of steering do you have? A boat that big should have hydraulic steering. Cables can be too loose and an oversized rudder could be an issue creating instability.

Roberta
I'm calling balogna on the hydraulic steering.
it's not a rudder problem,
not a steering problem.
not a porpoising problem.

Bigger boats have been around since their inception without hydraulic steering, and they run just fine
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

hoodman
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by hoodman »

OP,

Do you have quite a bit of boating experience? If not, I would suggest letting someone that does have a lot (who you trust) drive the boat. I can usually tell even at slower speeds if something weird is going on with a boat even if I don't know how to fix it. I'm NOT volunteering by the way.

What happens when you turn hard at slower speeds? Does it feel like sliding at all?
Matt

Building a Geronimo......!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25139

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kens
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by kens »

Hoosiervet and or Gayle:
Can you indicate if the attached drawing is the correct scenario for the barrel back 'hooking' ?

it only exhibits hooking in a following sea (overtaking a wave) at some oblique angle?
it does NOT exhibit this in a chop,
does NOT exhibit this on head-on wave
does not exhibit this if you 'square up' to ANY wave before crossing?
Is this true?
please PM me

Image
Attachments
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Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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Aussie
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Location: Sarina Queensland Building 23ft Belle Isle

Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Aussie »

Very curious about what is going on here.

I have not done any higher speeds with the Belle as we are mostly on the dam and knee boarding, tubing and skiing so nothing too fast.

However I do give her a run across the dam but only at about 35 mph

I have always ensured that I take an oncoming wake square on and at an appropriate speed. I have never felt any instability on the water and our dam gets quite rough.

I had heard of hooking before and when on holidays about ten years ago at the Goldcoast in Queensland Australia A Chris Craft barrelback hooked and rolled over.

I also would love to see some photos of the hull form front to back, rudder etc, does it have a central fin?

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Bill Edmundson »

When these boats were designed, 150 hp was a big engine at 3000 rpm. You might get 35 mph. Now, people are wanting to put 350 hp at 6000 rpm in the same boat to go 50+ mph. You didn't have many "wake" boats on the lakes plowing 4' wakes. These boats are just not designed for what people are asking them to do.

I have hooked the Tahoe in a 4' wake! It ain't no fun!

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

Hercdrvr
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Hercdrvr »

Sounds like the answer is like any other piece of equipment, know the machine’s limitations, and know my limitations as an operator. The latter being my limitation because I suffer from the airline pilot crossover skill syndrome, just because I can operate a 200 ton airplane in all weather conditions my ego figures, surely I can drive a 3,000 lb boat on a sunny day.
A heathy dose of fear and experience keeps things in the “green”.
Good discussion,
Matt B

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kens
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by kens »

Bill Edmundson wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:33 am
When these boats were designed, 150 hp was a big engine at 3000 rpm. You might get 35 mph. Now, people are wanting to put 350 hp at 6000 rpm in the same boat to go 50+ mph. You didn't have many "wake" boats on the lakes plowing 4' wakes. These boats are just not designed for what people are asking them to do.

I have hooked the Tahoe in a 4' wake! It ain't no fun!

Bill
+1 Bill,
The OP was a flag to me, he said that 'beast' of an engine, and 4000rpm, and 30-35 mph.
No way!! That beast at 4000 is about 45mph at least.
All our boats will hook if you approach a wave as the diagram I posted, some more than others though.
The forefoot in the bow water will start to act like its own rudder if you approach a wave right (or wrong) !!
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

TomB
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by TomB »

Matt asked about the EX 343 motor. It is a 5.7L, 343 HP motor by PleasureCraft Marine. WOT operating RPM is 4800-5200 with preferred WOT RPM of 5000. They list Max Cruising RPM as 4000. Might be fun to put a GPS on the boat to see how fast 4000 RPM really is.

Tom
In the home stretch on a Tahoe 23

HoosierVet
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by HoosierVet »

First of all I would like to thank everyone for their input. I’m sorry for the delay but we are on vacation with limited cell service.

The boat does have cable steering. It does not seem to be a problem in chop. The boat does not porpoise. And yes I do believe it happened while overtaking a wave on an oblique angle. As far as experience on a boat I have put over 1500 hours on my 3 searay runabouts and my 4 Mastercraft surf boats However I have no experience in a wooden boat especially a flat bottom wood boat.

We are on our third day with it on the water and have not had Any problems this trip but have not gone over 3000 rpm. My hope is to get it out tomorrow morning early when the water is like glass and try 4000 rpm. As stated prior my wife is very concerned about the boat and I try to keep it at 2500-2750 rpm. I also plan on having a friend run next to me and video the boat at different rpms to I can view the bow and how it is riding on the water.

HoosierVet
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by HoosierVet »

Hoodman asked about the steering. I had my mechanic pull the fuel tank and check the linkage and he felt it had the appropriate amount of play in it and the rudder is not loose in anyway either. This boat does not have a tight turning radius especially with what I am use to on the water. When turning at slower speeds the rear of the boat does not feel as if it is skipping or getting loose in anyway.

I am 99% convinced this boat is overpowered for what it was originally designed to handle. Does anyone think skegs would solve any of this problem?

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billy c
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by billy c »

HV-
Thanks for the update. I was interested in some of the answers and glad you are at least being cautious of the current limitations of the hull. I am sure if you went balls to the walls with the throttle you would most likely find what you suspect that that engine would exceed the potential top speed of the hull. That said my Mercruiser 350 but with only a meager 300hp will max out at 48 mph on light chop. Runs straight and true, have not experienced any hooking due to speed/conditions but do have quite a bit of time at the helm over the past few 60 some years. Best cruising speed is about 30-35 which is good for Winnipesaukee. At times where there is a good fetch and the waves build, more in the 15-20mph range. (Never much less than that in waves as you would lose your bow lift and go into pass out the raingear mode.)
I would let someone with some time on these wooden runabouts at least see what they think about the performance. Pictures of it would also help for use that are out here looking from afar and suggesting things to look at. Lastly I believe Hankinson has fins on a few of his hull designs, but I like the turns a little more loose as it handles much better when you can cheat and sideslip a little as you parallel park at our busy public docks.
PM me if you want to talk about that boat.
Billy
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

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