My first boat build questions - Flying Saucer

Outboard designs up to 14'

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rari
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:56 am
Location: Charleston, SC

My first boat build questions - Flying Saucer

Postby rari » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:49 am

As the subject states, this is my first ever boat build. I just got my plans from Glen-L yesterday and spent most of the last 24 hours reading over the pamphlets, books, plans and patterns. Forgive me if this has been asked before, I've tried searching the forums and following other people's builds, but there wasn't much continuity and I was more confused. I have a few questions to ask, I've ordered them by priority.

1. Building the Form - I read that the form needed to be at least 24" tall and the longitudinal members needed to be squared and leveled to the ground. I plan on building the boat the standard 12'3" length using a 9' keel.
- How long do the 2"x6" forms longitudinal members need to be? My guess would be 9' as well to fit between the transom and the aft side of #5 1/2 frame.
- Is the suggested height 24" from the floor to the top of the longitudinal members?
- How deep do the notches on the longitudinal members need to be for frames #2 and #4? My guess deep enough for the keel to be level to the ground from the transom to the end of the stem just behind frame #5 1/2.
- What's the rule for the spacing length for frames #2 and #4, between the transom and frame #5 1/2? I'm guessing the frames are place 1/3 the distance, for example if I have a 9' keel, frame #2 is placed at 36" from transom and frame #4 is placed at 72" from transom (36" from frame #2)?
- What's the suggested length of the floor mounted 2x6 in-between the legs? I'm assuming the length of the boat.

2. Frame gussets - my plans don't come with patterns for the frame gussets. I've noticed different methods in using gussets Glen-L suggests "sandwiching" a 1/4" plywood in between the side frame and the bottom frame. While I've seen everyone else on the forum use a long bottom frame, cut short side frame and place two 1/4" plywood gussets on both sides.
- Does either method on the gusset placement (single plywood in between or two plywood outside frames) make any difference structurally?
- Does the gusset design matter as long as the gussets secure the frame pieces together? (Designs I've seen: "L" shape and the inner gusset is rounded the end shape basically looks like a have heart with a wider angle)

3. Cockpit design and frame placement - I'm in the air on how I want to design the cockpits. I was thinking a dual cockpit the helm being a in the aft cockpit, then I was thinking a more utility style. One cockpit, helm towards the bow-starboard side and open space between to easily access the aft of the boat. In other words, bucket seats up front, access way in the middle full bench seat in the rear.

Either way of which design I decide on, this question is about the deck(top) frames for #2 and #4.
- When the boat is top down on the form, can I build the boat without the top frames on #2 and #4 installed? Will this cause any issues when I mount the sheers and chines?

Referencing sheet 3 of 4 of the plans, I see where the #2 and # 4 frames are placed, but then I see an annotation at the deck of the drawing "Beam at #3 Relocated" and "Beam at #4". I'm under the impression that the beam is referring to the top frame members. Going back to the previous question I had above:
- Relocation beam (top frame members) means I can move them. Relocation to me means, "Frames at it's original location during the hull build, when upright, but in according to my cockpit design, I will need to saw off the top frame and move it forward."

- It would probably be just easy to know if I need to connect the top member of frame #2 and #4 during the sheers, chine and hull or is it stable to leave them off. I could just build the side frame members long as the pattern shows and cut in the notches for the sheer.

4. Last question - Keel and frame keel notch width - In measure wood nothing is sized to what is says. I have a keel that is a 1"x4", but actual measurement looks like 3/4"x3 1/2" inch. It appears the notches for the keel on the bottom frame is measured for 4". Looking at everyone else's pictures of their build, it appears that the notches fit the keel perfect.
- Do I cut just as it states in the pattern or did I get the wrong size keel and actual 1x4" keels exists?

Sorry for the long post. I just want to get started right. I've been studying everyone else's build's for the past 2 months, to the point I can build a boat in my head. I just want to make sure I'm using the best-practices and plan everything accordingly before I even make my first cut.

Thanks for your time.

Rari
Glen-L Flying Saucer
Newbie Boatbuilder
Charleston SC
Rari
Charleston SC
Newbie Boatbuilding a Flying Saucer
https://rarisboat.wordpress.com/

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mrintense
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Re: My first boat build questions - Flying Saucer

Postby mrintense » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:42 pm

Rari,

Welcome to the fun of boat building.

I cannot answer the specific questions about your design as I am building a quite different design (Vera Cruise). However I can try to give you a few pointers.

#1 (Most Important) If you haven't already done so, pick up the "Boatbuilding With Plywood" book from Glen L. There is a wealth of information in there although you may have to read over it a few times.
#2 These plans have been around for a long time with many builders having built them. My suspicion is that all of the dimensions you are looking for are on the plans somewhere or can be inferred from other dimensions.
#3 Think through every step before committing to an action. In time you will get to know what you can get away with and what needs to be paid attention to. But in the beginning, take your time. Ask me how I know! :oops:
#4 The building form dimensions on my boat are all on the plans (including the height of the frames and the distance between frames)
#5 Continue to take advantage of the forum. While specific help isn't always available, you can often get enough information to point you in the right direction, but a thinking chair and a cool one are your best friends when you start on this.
#6 I didn't start building my building form until later (after I had completed the frames). The main reason for this was budgetary, but also because I had limited space to work with and needed it for a layout board. A layout board can be useful however it will add a bit of extra time to the build.
#7 See #1

Good luck with your build and please post a lot of pictures as you go.
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

rari
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Location: Charleston, SC

Re: My first boat build questions - Flying Saucer

Postby rari » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:07 pm

Thanks Carl, I will look into the book that you suggested, but I'm building this on a limited budget, I would rather spend on the money on materials, maybe I can check the library. I happen to have the space ready, I have a little money to start building, but I don't know if I want to go with frame assemblies or Building Form first, either way, whichever order, I'm going to need both done before I can start mounting the sheers and chines.

I've observed most everyone's boat build here and youtube and each builders technique and method is slightly different at the end, they got a floating boat. My local boat builder friend didn't even use a Building Form. He framed everything on the ground, which completely surprised me because I was under the impression you needed to build it on a stand. With that being said, there are a lot of lack of continuity with the different build mods for me to comprehend what is the right and wrong. I think building a boat has it's basic principles that all boats share when building, but everyone has their way of executing it, typically by now best practices and clearly defined.

I've given it a lot of thought for some time now, despite I just got the plans. Maybe it's the way I'm asking the questions, I'm just looking for someone with experience, confirm or deny my answers. None of the questions below are in any documentation I received from Glen-L.

Q1. When building the Building Form, is there a recommended size on the lengths of the longitudinal member's?
A1. I would assume smaller than the distance between the transom and the furthest front frame (attached to the stem). On my boat plan it referenced the front frame as frame #5 1/2.

Q2. What is the recommended spacing for two frames between the transom and the frame #5 1/2?
A2. I've been reading they have to be evenly spaced between transom and the first frame.

Q3. Is there a recommended ratio height/width of size for the gussets on the frame butt joints?
A3. I'm going to make two matching obtuse angled brackets for outside of the butt joint of the frame members.

Q4. Is the beam (the longest top-most member) on frames, particularly the middle ones require to be on the frame while building the boat?
A4. My boat in particular has 4 total frames, including the transom. The two middle frames, I would guess doesn't need the top frame mounted while building wrapping the sheers and chines, then hull. I would install the top frames after the boat is up right.

Q5. Is the keel width supposed to fit perfectly in the keel notches on the frames?
A5. On paper, the numbers don't match the size (I read 3-1/2" keel plank is supposed to fit into a 4" keel notch on frame?). Even though the numbers don't match, I'm willing to bet that the keel will fit just fine with little wiggle room.

Last question, it doesn't require an answer for my build. I see the Zip is similar to the Flying Saucer, not sure the numbering scheme is the same for all boat builds. I get the numbering scheme form the frames on my particular boat:
[TRANSOM] - [FRAME#2] - [FRAME#4] - [FRAME#5 1/2] - [STEM]
- Why is it referred to frame 2, 4 (where's frame 1 and 3?)
- What does frame #5 1/2 even mean? (where did the 1/2 come from?)
I'm sure there's a reason, maybe it's a boat builder's secret or something that Glen-L came up, but the numbering sequence doesn't make sense to me other than ZERO is the transom and it goes up from there.

I hope I simplified the questions, they are just questions that doesn't make any sense to me, mathematically, logically and structurally.

Thanks in advance! I look forward to picking something to get started with.

Rari
Glen-L Flying Saucer
Newbie Boatbuilder
Charleston SC
Rari
Charleston SC
Newbie Boatbuilding a Flying Saucer
https://rarisboat.wordpress.com/

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hoodman
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Re: My first boat build questions - Flying Saucer

Postby hoodman » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:12 am

A lot of your questions are specific to the flying saucer so hopefully someone who has built one will chime in. Boatbuilding with Plywood book I think is well worth the money. It will answer !ost of your questions and probably save you the amount of money spent on it. It is a small price to pay in the overall build in my opinion.

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Andy Garrett
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Re: My first boat build questions - Flying Saucer

Postby Andy Garrett » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:14 am

On gussets:

The dual gusset is stronger. However, it is my opinion that these boats are quite strong enough with the single gusset. Think about how you intend to use the boat then choose based on that.

To determine size and shape. Here is what I did:

I laid my frames together as they would be permanently mounted in the boat. Then, I measured 6 inches up the frame from the end of each member. I took this measurement on both edge (interior and exterior). That gives you two marks on the side frame and two marks on the bottom frame. Then, just trace a perimeter to get your gusset shape with a straight line from the interior marks of each frame member, and of course, following the outside contour of the frames and joint.

This shape will work for either type of gusset, but you'll see a variety of shapes and strategies that may be just as good.
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

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BarnacleMike
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Re: My first boat build questions - Flying Saucer

Postby BarnacleMike » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:10 pm

Hi Rari,

First of all, welcome to the forum, and congratulations on choosing a great design in the Flying Saucer. I believe you will find this entire journey to be incredibly rewarding.

I would also highly recommend that you buy the Glen-L "Boatbuilding With Plywood" book. It's some of the wisest money you can spend at this point. That book, as well as Ken Hankinson's "How to Fiberglass Boats," will prove as invaluable a resource as this forum, as you progress through your project.

On your questions:

1a. How long do the longitudinal form members need to be? You should be able to find this dimension in your plans, on the sheet that illustrates the construction form. On my Zip plans, this happens to be sheet number 4. You should see the frame spacing between each frame from the transom to frame #5-1/2. Simply add these dimensions together, and you'll have the length of the top longitudinal. BUT: Take note that the dimension is (probably) to the SHORTER length at the top of the longitudinal. It will angle outward 12° from that point, so the bottom of the longitudinal will be slightly longer. I say "probably," because I'm referencing Zip plans, not Flying Saucer plans. However, the two boats share the same frames, so I expect the plans are very similar.

1b. Is the suggested height 24" from the floor to the top of the longitudinal members? Probably. Take a close look at the dimensions at the breasthook. My Zip plans show 5-1/2" from the floor to the breasthook, and 21" from there to the set-up level.... or a total of 26-1/2". That sounds about like the 24" you're talking about. Again, take a close look at the small details in the plans. The answers are most likely there.

1c. How deep do the notches on the longitudinal members need to be for frames #2 and #4? My Zip plans show a 3" notch for frame #5-1/2, a 2" notch for frame #4, and no notch for frame #2. Again, take a close look at the small details in the plans. The answers are most likely there.

1d. What's the rule for the spacing length for frames #2 and #4, between the transom and frame #5 1/2? I'm almost certain these dimensions are given in one of the sheets that came with your plans, as this is critical info.

1e. What's the suggested length of the floor mounted 2x6 in-between the legs? From my experience, I would recommend running it far back enough that it would pass 2 of the uprights, and check your centerline very carefully... and MARK IT (on EVERYTHING). The centerline is a critical reference point.

2. Frame gussets: What you're describing are double-gusseted frames and lapped frames with single gussets. I've made frames both ways, and as for myself, I prefer lapped frames with single gussets for this reason: I find them easier. The double-gussetted frames require a bit more precision in the fitting, though as Andy points out, they're supposed to be stronger. They're also arguably more attractive. Personally, I'm planning to use lapped & single-gusseted frames on my Zip. I doubt the shape of the gussets makes a major difference, though I'm trying to stick with the basic 6" radius ones. Depending on the tools you have available, the curved gussets can be considerably more time-consuming and painstaking to cut.

3a. Can I build the boat without the top frames on #2 and #4 installed? You'll want to have the top cross members installed on the frames before the chines and sheers go in, because these cross members will be a real pain to try to fit after-the-fact.

3b. Relocation of cross members. From what I understand, relocation of these pieces in the Flying Saucer have to do with optional cockpit arrangements, and placement of forward steering. I believe the way this is done is to cut the frame members out, relocate them, and attach them to the carling (once the carling is installed). All that is a LONG way away from this point in the build. For now, I'd build the frames as-spec'd. They'll be stronger, and you're going to be putting a lot of pressure against the frames later in the project.

4. Last question - Keel and frame keel notch width. You'll want to cut the notches to the actual width and depth of the stock you'll be using for the keel and battens. You should be able to locate actual 4/4 lumber for the keel (or even 5/4). I would highly recommend doing so, as the performance of your boat can be negatively affected by a flexing keel / bottom. Make sure to cut the extra limbers to allow water to flow through each frame to a drain point at the back.

5. Why is it referred to frame 2, 4 (where's frame 1 and 3?) What does frame #5 1/2 even mean? (where did the 1/2 come from?) All this stems from the drafting techniques used in designing a boat hull. The designer will draw an evenly-spaced number of vertical lines from the transom to the bow as reference points. These vertical lines are called "stations." They begin at "0" (the transom) and end at "F.P." or "Forward Point", (the bow). The stations are numbered, and the number of stations is left up to the designer. In the case of the Zip / Flying Saucer, Mr. Witt used a total of 8 (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & F.P.). Frames typically, (but not always), line up with the drawing stations. Frame #5-1/2 is labelled as such simply because it is located between station #5 and station #6. Frames 2 and 4 are labelled as such, because they align with these stations.
-Michael

Built Utility "Perseverance" — completed Aug 2016
Currently building a Zip
My Boatbuilding Blog: http://barnaclemikeboats.blogspot.com/
My Website of Boat Photos: https://michaelsmaddox.wordpress.com

rari
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:56 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: My first boat build questions - Flying Saucer

Postby rari » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:08 pm

Thanks you guys, you better explained/answered a lot of my questions and I'm getting a much better understanding. I will try to budget for the Glen-L book you all suggested, but as you may know/understand, I'm more eager to buy the materials than a book. I couldn't tell you at this point if I plan on building another boat or not. Currently my first plan will be to buy the best quality plywood to fit my budget and cut out those parts and prepare them for use. Next would be to buy the frames. I'm in no huge rush to complete this project, which will make it much easier for me to take my time and ask the right questions as I progress. As I continue to re-read the plans and the documentation that came with the kit, initially it's obvious that all this would seem like "greek" to me, simply because I'm just not quite familiar with it, is why what is shown for dimension don't seem to be clearly defined. I will take a few days to sit down and comprehend all was written.. Thanks you all for taking the time.

I've also been documenting my build and experience in a blog. There are pictures and questions that a lot reflect what is on the forum.
https://rarisboat.wordpress.com/

Rari
Rari
Charleston SC
Newbie Boatbuilding a Flying Saucer
https://rarisboat.wordpress.com/


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