West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Outboard designs up to 14'

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gdcarpenter
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West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby gdcarpenter » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:58 pm

"first, last, and only boat build" - still applies!

Since my wife felt widowed for the 2 years I built my ZIP I promised not to build another boat. Then I found an old boat and rebuilding an old boat is NOT building another boat. I believe I will let her name this boat if I ever get it done.

So the boat shown that I pick up tomorrow has one layer of planking. I would love to hear comments and feedback on the pros and cons of the West Systen vs 5200 on resurrecting the hull bottom.
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garrech
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby garrech » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:54 pm

Sorry, don't have enough experience to answer your question, but what boat is that?

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby Bill Edmundson » Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:18 am

GD

Old traditional construction boats that aren't glassed are loose and flexible. This comes from the wood swelling and shrinking as the wood wets and dries out. Screw become loose. 5200 is the product of choice. It seals, bond, and remains flexible.

Our new boats are very stiff and are cover with fiberglass. Epoxy is the right choice.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

cusoak
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby cusoak » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:57 am

Could you tell us what make of boat you are going to have .
I redid my 1966 Century boat which is a single planking bottom. With battens running for and aft attached in notiches in every frame, So that the seams can be screw doun.
The modern was to reuus the bottom is to install a layer of 3 mil marine plywood first. Seal it and any of the old frames with Smith's Cpes sealer.
This will penitrate the wood fibers and glue them back together.
Then with the aid of 3M 5200 applied to the frames and battens the ply wood is stapled in place, Then the planking can be installed using 5200 applied with a trowel and screwed down. Enough 5200 must be applied so that there is squeeze out between the planks edges and butt joints.
West System also makes a product call G flex epoxy that stays flexiable .
Jeff

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Dave Grason
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby Dave Grason » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:49 am

Bill Edmundson wrote:GD

Old traditional construction boats that aren't glassed are loose and flexible. This comes from the wood swelling and shrinking as the wood wets and dries out. Screw become loose. 5200 is the product of choice. It seals, bond, and remains flexible.

Our new boats are very stiff and are cover with fiberglass. Epoxy is the right choice.

Bill


I agree one BRAZILION percent! In fact, Danenburg says the same thing in his book, "How to Restore Your Wooden Runabout."

Here's a link but I have to admit, I was just blown away when I saw the price. I certainly paid no where close to that when I bought my copy:

http://www.amazon.com/Restore-Wooden-Ru ... n+runabout

But for a man in your position, this book should just about be required reading. Early in the book, Danenburg talks about the practice of making old boats look good as opposed to actually bringing them back to original and very usable condition. He refers to these "look good only" projects as "Mop and Glow" boats. I say this because I'm posting a link to another book about old boat restoration that, IMHO, is geared far more to the restorer who wants to take the easiest path possible and will likely end up with a Mop & Glow. This book is not nearly as impressive and knowledgeable as the Danenburg book. I think if you bought this book, you would very likely be disappointed if not even misled:

http://www.amazon.com/Wooden-Boat-Renov ... M8R40K9JWC

gdcarpenter wrote: Since my wife felt widowed for the 2 years I built my ZIP I promised not to build another boat..


This reminds me of the old joke between two country boys:

Bubba: "I got a fishing boat for my wife."

Junior: "Good Trade!" :lol:
Isn't it amazing!! The person that never has the fortitude to pursue his own dreams, will be the first to try and discourage you from pursuing yours.

gdcarpenter
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby gdcarpenter » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:45 am

Thank you so much for the replies. The boat is a 1957 Century 15' 'Palomino'

I realize that the '5200, bottom is all the rage, and used by highly reputable artisans. The down sides I see are that it that the system is, firstly and foremost, 'permanent', and, secondly , 'expensive'. The downside of 'permanent' is that if future repairs are necessary - get the chainsaw - 'cause ain't nothing coming apart!

The '5200' system also converts the hull from a 'batten and seam' single plank hull to a form of cold molded hull, by virtue of adding the marine ply substrate. This would, I suspect, stiffen up the hull.

I suspect that I will be replacing some bottom planks, and at least one side plank. Currently my thought is to remove all the bottom planking (likely plank one at a time to not risk the hull shape shifting) and clean and CPES treat the plank all around.
I would then reinstall each plank using either 5200, or, more likely, "Sitka 291LOT", the later would be less 'permanent' and allow possible future repairs. The adhesive would be used to bond the plank to the frames and battens, as well as a adjacent planks.

Here is a link to 5200 being used as caulking on a 'woody', and put through punishing use. Near the bottom of the article is a link to the 'follow up'.

http://www.vintageraceboatshop.com/Edge ... ject-1.htm

Here is a link to "Dry Bilges" that seems on point for the direction I seem to be heading.

http://www.star-distributing.com/howtog ... bilge.html

Fiber glassing the bottom is NOT on the list of options.

Still haven't touched the project as it's been cold and I have been busy. This has given me time to mull things over.

Any and all comments welcome!
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Bill Edmundson
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby Bill Edmundson » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:59 am

GD

I think you're on the right path for this project. First, I do not like 5200. As you said, once it sets there is no going back.

Today, I doing repair work on the Tahoe. I thought I had some cracks at the transom/topside interface. I wasn't getting leaks. When I sanded it down I found that the glass had delaminated and cracked. NO wood damage. I can fix this.

Good luck. I know you'll keep us posted.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

jel1988
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby jel1988 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:43 pm

Forty years ago I purchased a 46 Chris Craft custom runabout with the original bottom consisting of thin diagonal planking with fore and aft planking set into bedding compound. It was normal for these boats to leak until they swelled. We used 5200 to seal the bottom planks as no other material would last. The probable cause being the wood and fastening were tired allowing excessive movement within the boats structure. In the early 1980's I had an expert install a west system bottom as recommended. This consisted of 1/4" mahogany plywood with the 7/16" mahogany planking run fore and aft. This did stiffen the hull considerably. His marina had a couple hundred wooden boats and not one Clorox bottle in the lot. He was also recognized by Wooden Boat magazine. Within 5 years we noticed the plywood discolouring in a couple of areas. After a family member had an encounter with a deadhead and a trip to the bottom we noticed the discolouring was indicating water getting between the laminations. We contracted another repair firm and he recommended an entire new bottom done the way the Chris Craft had originally built the boat! He suggested if we had the bottom redone to original construction we'd be looking at a couple planks not an entire replacement. The first bottom lasted 38 years, the second 8 years and the third 24 years and counting.

gdcarpenter
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby gdcarpenter » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:44 am

Thank you for taking time to share your personal, real life, experience. I know this is not specifically GlenL fodder, but I hope it can be useful and interesting to us boat building 'nuts'. Restoration is a whole 'nuther bailiwick, as I am discovering. My residential construction/carpentry/woodworking background is an an avoidable reference point for me. I have often said you may as well give water a way to get out, because it will inevitable, and insidiously, find it's way in. That is why I have as few 'penetrations' in my hull as possible on my ZIP.

I have not accomplished much yet, busy work wise and it's been cold. I have now 2 new tires on the original TeeNee rims so the boat is at least mobile. I consider myself lucky in that I am convinced that everything I have is original, including the upholstery. That should make restoring her a tad easier. All the bits and bobs are stuffed in my garage attic now.

Hope to start fabricating a 'rotisserie' stand of sorts for working in the hull.

The water skis were part of the purchase package along with an ancient child's life jacket.
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cusoak
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby cusoak » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:35 am

If you can take you Century to a lake for a dip test to see how bad it leaks, and where it leaks. Single planked bottoms over time will require soaking them to be able to use them. What you might also fine when taking the planks off are frames that are rotton or cracked at the chine landing and very soft.
One of the places that century boats a notorius for been bad is the bottom transom frame .
Did you buy that boat in NC off Craig list . If so I looked at that boat also.
If you want to use Danenburg books I have a set that will lend you.
Jeff
pm me for the books

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby Bill Edmundson » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:13 am

When you do soak the boat, put a few boxes of rock salt in it. Salt kills/prevents rot. Do you ever remember seeing the wood bucket on an ice cream maker that rotted?

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

gdcarpenter
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby gdcarpenter » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:52 pm

Yep, bought her off Craigslist, she was in Asheboro. I have done a lot of crawling around and here's what I have found so far.

The frames are butt joined and gusseted, all the gussets were ply and are shot. Second owner fab'd new ones out of 1/2" PT ply, and did a very good job of shaping them to fit. I will however create new gussets out of 1/2" MDO. Medium Density Overlay, all exterior rated ply and glue, and good one side or 2 with smooth face. I have used the 3/4" MDO a lot for exterior projects and it stands up very well. Originals were clearly only screwed, might glue and screw replacements.

Have only found one damaged frame so far, understand they were made out of White Oak.

One or two bottom hull boards have had sketchy fiberglass repair and a run of 6' or so of chine batten replaced, doesn't seem major. One short side hull board split, could fiberglass inside or replace. Some fiber gassing on short section of keel also, will need further investigation.

Seems most Century's were made with African Mahogany, but I have found a couple of references that '55-'57 runs were Phillipine Mahogany. Will come down to what's available locally.

She's been sitting 'dry' for over a decade so don't want to 'dip' her now. Understand it's best to have boards as dry as practically possible, since I will most likely "R&R" all the bottom hull boards.
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Original Gussets
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Damaged/missing frame sections
This is my first, last and only boat build.

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gdcarpenter
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby gdcarpenter » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:57 pm

Okay, first pretty full day on the boat and the first $100.00 spent. Not including purchase price.

Cut 1/2" dados or grooves Into 2X4's and fab'd 4'X8' framed panel as shown.
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4'X8' Panel
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2X4's with dados
This is my first, last and only boat build.

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gdcarpenter
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Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby gdcarpenter » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:02 pm

Removed Monster Johnson Mounting Brackets, will use existing holes from brackets for 'form' attachment.

Used 8 1/4" circ saw to diagonally cut 6X6, the 'cleaned up' surfaces on jointer.

Countersunk exit holes and used 1/2" bolts to secure tapered 6X6's to transom.
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Last edited by gdcarpenter on Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is my first, last and only boat build.

http://www.gdzipbuild.blogspot.com

gdcarpenter
Posts: 1325
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Location: Raleigh, North Carolina

Re: West System vs 5200 Planked Hulls

Postby gdcarpenter » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:05 pm

Used 1" drywall screws to cojoin 2 pieces of 3/4" ply, 21" X 21".

Through bolted 3/4" pipe flange to center of double layer ply and threaded in length of 3/4" pipe.

Screwed the 21" X 21" double ply to the 6X6's with many 3" screws.
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This is my first, last and only boat build.

http://www.gdzipbuild.blogspot.com


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