Michigan Squirt Build

Outboard designs up to 14'

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JimmY
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Location: Brighton, MI

HELP Painting!

Postby JimmY » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:47 am

Did I say I hate painting?

Anyhow, over that last few days I have sanded down the WR-LPU that I sprayed on. I started with 400 to get it flat, and then ran through 600, 1000, and 1500, and then started polishing it with the 3M Perfect It kit I used on the bottom. I've been working in the garage with what light I have. The surface is getting a nice shine to it from some angles, but when I roll it out into the sun, I've got scratches all over the place. I tried going back to wet sanding at 600, and then back through the process but it didn't help. I don't think I cut through to the epoxy. I'm at a loss and I'm tired of sanding.

20170820_100211.jpg
Looks ok, right?

20170820_100303.jpg
shiny scratches

20170820_100319.jpg
More scratches


When the boat is wet, it looks great, but a soon as it dries out it looks like crap.

I don't know if spraying was a bad idea or what. Did I start sanding it too soon? Should I go back to roll and tip, or just drag it up to the body shop and have a pro spray it?
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

ToddM
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby ToddM » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:18 am

I don't have any advice, but my own experience with color sanding clear finishes, in my case lacquer, is that at any time if the finish goes from shiny and glossy and clear, to duller, it means I have burned through the finish down to the wood. In your case, it sounds as if you sanded through all your WR-LPU, (I will have to look that up), to the epoxy. Or, ...

Maybe the scratches from the 400 and 600 never got completely sanded out by the next higher grit? It can be hard to tell sometimes, but I find that the finish gets shinier and shinier as I go through the grits, and I have to thoroughly check between each grit to make sure I have cleared the previous scratches.

And I totally get the frustration. Laying finish and sanding, and laying finish and sanding, and laying finish and sanding, and, well you get the point, can be tedious and without immediate gratification. When you go through the finish and have to start over again? It is heartbreaking.

BTW, your boat looks awesome.

ToddM
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby ToddM » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:43 am

Jimmy Y - I read about WR-LPU and this is from System Three:

"Buffing and polishing: If a higher level of gloss is desired the cured coat may be sanded and buffed. Wet sand with 600 grit sandpaper proceeding in stages through 1500 grit. Buff with a compound equivalent to 2500 grit and finish with something like 3 M's Finesse-It."

It sounds like you followed the instructions except for the part about starting with 600 rather than 400. If I were in your shoes, I would get two boards, one flat and one curved, and finish them with the epoxy and the WR-LPU and experiment with sanding and number of WR-LPU coats until I found what worked best in my hands.

DSR
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby DSR » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:45 am

Hi Jim,

From what you described, it sounds like the LPU is still green. I've had the same thing happen when I've sprayed automotive 2-part and attacked it too quickly I did a quick search and found that various people that use the LPU suggest waiting a week or two for it to completely cure.

Dave
DSR Performance - Home of yet another jet TNT build :D
Codename "Just A Little....."
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vupilot
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby vupilot » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:36 pm

The hard part is to find out where the scratches really are. Are they in the clear coat or in the epoxy coat, or worse? I think youll have to work through the steps on a small area to tell exactly how deep the scratches go. It seems to me they might be from your initial 400 grit. That was a pretty aggressive grit.

You are finding as I did that building a boat takes only one set of skills but finishing it takes an entire other set.

JimmY
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby JimmY » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:15 pm

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I tried starting with 600 initially, but most of the paints had significant orange peel and it wasn't flattening it fast enough, so I switched to 400 which still took a long time.

I'm just using a small sponge pad and 1/4 sheet of paper by hand (is there an easier way?). Maybe I'm pressing too hard and where the paper wraps around the pad it was digging in. I'm pretty sure the scratches are not in the epoxy, since they were not there after painting. If I wet down the surface, it is crystal clear. I'm pretty sure I haven't burned through the paint, at least not all of it maybe just the deep scratches.

I tried going over a few areas with 600, and the deep scratches are not coming out. Right now, I'm thinking of ordering more paint and sanding the deck with 320 to prepare it to try again.
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

red
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby red » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:43 am

to me it looks like the scratches are on the substrate what grit was used to prep before spraying? but its hard to tell from a pic

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hoodman
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby hoodman » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:16 pm

Man that is frustrating. If you shine a really bright light and look closely at it can you tell if they are on the surface? Wouldn't scratches under the system three get filled in by the coating?

JimmY
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby JimmY » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:02 am

Hi All,

I'm 100% sure that the scratches are on the surface, since they disappear when I wet down the deck. I spent some time on the phone with Jeff (BB) talking this through, and the conclusion is I got a little over anxious trying to finish sand too early (should have let it cure for a few days), and I'm skipping too many steps in the sanding process. I've been trying to get this little boat in the water before we get into Michigan's second season (right now we are in construction :( ).

Jeff's philosophy is that, with what we have to work with (marine paints, working outside, odd shapes, not expert at spraying), we will end up sanding and polishing to get a decent finish, so you need to build up a thick base. This way you don't have to worry about cutting through to the epoxy.

I've ordered another quart of paint, and the plan is to go back to rolling it on to build up a good base that can be leveled and polished. Spraying wasted a lot of paint and I was only able to get 4 coats out of about 2/3 of a quart. When I was rolling the bottom, I was able to get twice as many coats with the same amount. Also, I'll run over to the auto paint supplier today to get a better assortment of sandpapers.

So tonight, I'm knock it down with 220 or 320 and start over. I'm going to leave the splash well alone since that came out nice and should polish up fine. Also the transom blended well, so I'll tape that off and concentrate on the deck, dash, and rub rail.

Bottom line, don't rush to finish your boat. The build time is relatively short to the use time.
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

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mrintense
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby mrintense » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:39 am

I think this desire to get the boat into the water is the hardest part of building, especially when it comes with having to do something as tedious as sanding. After five years of building, I get this feeling quite often and have to keep telling myself to take my time. One thing that I find that does help with this is to break each phase down into small steps and list them on a piece of paper in the approximate order I want to accomplish them. Each step is something I can accomplish in 15 to 60 minutes. I can do each of these every day after work and make progress. Checking off each item on the list (and scratching out the item) help to make up for the lack of visual progress I occasionally have.

But there is no denying that this hobby requires a high degree of patience if you want to get the boat you are looking for. Many have said in the past, don't build to a schedule. I agree. Perhaps another way to look at it is that if you don't make the season this year, think how pretty (and prepared) the boat will be next season because you'll have the winter to do the extra finesse work.
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

JimmY
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Location: Brighton, MI

Success!

Postby JimmY » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:01 pm

So it has been a busy week of boat building. Each night is has been come home, sand, eat dinner, wet down the garage, paint, wait, paint, wait, paint, clean up. The first session, I rolled and tipped off the pain with a nice 2 1/2" bristle brush. This left some deep brush marks, so I switched over to a $0.99 foam brush and this worked much better.

I took today off work and sanded and laid on three coats and it is much smoother than my spraying attempts. The paint is working a little different than when I painted the bottom in the basement. If I thin it too much (25%+) it tends to bead up. I would lay on a nice coat and tip it off, only to look at it after finishing the deck to see it beading up. For the second and third coats I left the paint open in the roller pan to hopefully evaporate some of the water. This appears to have helps and the final coats look really nice.

After that, I cleaned up and the wife took a drive with me to Marlette, MI to Marine Industries to pick up some stainless rub rail and transom bands. The company was in the middle of Michigan Amish farm country, and was a weird place for such a business, with not a lake in sight. While they have a website, they are more into producing pieces for the big production boat companies, but they were happy to sell me a few pieces of 12' x 3/4" rub rail, two 12" ends, and 6' x 1 1/14" banding. All this was only $75. At other only line places, one piece of rub rail cost that much!

After getting back, I still had some paint so I applied one more coat (10 in total) and called it quits. I'll let this setup for a few days before starting the leveling and polishing process. Hopefully I'll be able to level it with a finer grit (600?) and go from there.

So for what it is worth (and most of this comes from BayouBengal), when working with WR-LPU you need to build up several coats to have enough to level and polish. Rolling and tipping works better than spraying (unless you are a pro with a booth), and you will be able to put on more coats with less paint. Rolling alone leaves a lot of bubbles, so I recommend tipping it off. You just need to keep moving and plan how you will cover the whole boat. When rolling it on, I overlapped onto the section I had just tipped to help blend the sections together.

20170825_165344.jpg
Final coat

20170825_165400.jpg
Almost doesn't need polishing

20170825_171223.jpg
Had to try out rub rail
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

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BarnacleMike
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby BarnacleMike » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:48 pm

Looks great! Nice job on the rub rail!
-Michael

Built Utility "Perseverance" — completed Aug 2016
Currently building a Zip
My Boatbuilding Blog: http://barnaclemikeboats.blogspot.com/
My Website of Boat Photos: https://michaelsmaddox.wordpress.com

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BayouBengal
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby BayouBengal » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:19 pm

Looks pretty good, Jim.

Looking at the second picture I can see more texture than I wish you had, but still you might be able to flatten it with 600. Is that picture your final coat?
Did you sand with 220 between every couple of coats, and when you did, could you tell if you were sanding through or not? If you didn't sand through, you probably won't when you start your color-sanding. :D
Were you able to meet Lowell when you went to Marine Industries? He seemed like a great guy in our phone conversations. The drive sounded wonderful and I hope you and your wife enjoyed it
Were you able to get the rail that will go around the bow pre-bent?

I'm optimistic that you have enough finish that you'll be able to color sand it without a problem and we're both anxious to find out; but give it a few days to cure before you go at it. When you sand, use a block similar to the ones pictured below. I primarily use the blue one, but sometimes use the durablock type. Don't push too hard, let the sandpaper do the work.

ThreeMBlocks.jpg
ThreeMBlocks.jpg (9.81 KiB) Viewed 1761 times
Durablock.jpg
BlueBlock.jpg
BlueBlock.jpg (9.35 KiB) Viewed 1761 times


BTW, if you send me an email over a PM, I'll send some raw videos of some trim panels I did on my boat that may help you.

Enjoy your days off while you wait for the finish to cure.

JimmY
Posts: 661
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:08 am
Location: Brighton, MI

Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby JimmY » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:12 am

Hi Guys,

That is the final coat in the photos. I put on 3 coats and sanded it until there was just some shinny streaks before doing the next set of coats. So, I'm sure I did not sand through in any spots and I should have a decent base laid down. It is much smoother than the orange peel from the sprayer, so I'm hopeful that 600 will knock it down.

I picked up one of these blocks at Rockler, and I've got good 3M sandpaper from the local auto paint distributor. It's been working well for me, and I can get 4 strips of paper from a sheet. The deck is pretty flat and open, so this can get into most spaces.
block.jpg
block.jpg (1.27 KiB) Viewed 1746 times

I looked at those other blocks and they appear to need self adhesive paper, or already have grit on them.

At Marine Industries, I worked with Tom who was also very nice. I had asked him about pre-bending, but it would have doubled the cost, and it sounded like it would be a bit of an pain for them. Similarly, I could have had them finish off one of the ends on the 12' sections, rather than butting up the 12" ends, but this was relatively expensive as well. My plan is to use the finished ends at the transom, and just have the two sides meet at the front and cut them to fit with each other. I may be able to get them welded together and grind a small radius on them.

I'm off to pick up my daughter from band camp today. Tomorrow, I plan to polish up the splash well and hang the motor. I can start wiring up the motor and hooking up the steering while the paint cures. The motor should not get in the way too much for final sanding and polishing.

Next questions: I've got to drill holds for the rub rail, can I just use 3M 5200 or 4200 when installing the screws, or should I use epoxy? I can get 5200 at Big Orange, but only in white. I read somewhere here that people recommend the black.

Also, I drilled holes for the transom handles, and encapsulated them with epoxy, but had to ream them out. Can I use the 3M sealant there as well, or should I epoxy in the screws? When I did the bow eye, I coated the screw with epoxy and made it permanent.

Thanks,
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

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BayouBengal
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Re: Michigan Squirt Build

Postby BayouBengal » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:51 am

Good to hear you have a nice thick base to work with.

The short number 6 screws used to secure the rubrail doesn't really require a drilled hole. A punch awl is perfect for just getting a starter hole. Because the holes are so far above the waterline, I didn't seal them and don't feel it's necessary. But if you choose to, any color 5200 should be fine because the holes are so small that all you need is an extremely small drop and it'll be covered up by the rubrail.

Play around with squeezing out your 5200 first. If you squeeze out too much, it can become troublesome pretty quickly. In the wise words of Bill Edmundson
I find 5200 extremely messy. When you get it on your gloves that's it. It won't just wipe off. It seems to get on everything. It stays tacky for days. If you touch it to check... It gets on more stuff.


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