Jet Zip?

Outboard designs up to 14'

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sproggy
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Jet Zip?

Post by sproggy » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:11 pm

Greetings. I am in the early stages of planning a Zip build. I chose a Zip because it's pretty much the largest boat I can build in my garage, plus I like the look of it. Having chosen a Zip, I rather perversely prefer not to have an outboard. This is partly because I don't like them in general (bad experiences in the past) and partly because a modern outboard bolted on the back spoils the look of the Zip IMO and 'classic' outboards simply aren't available in the UK the way they are in the US. Except for crazy money.

I've not chosen an inboard boat design because we don't have the choice of marinised motor over here for sensible money (i.e. unless imported from the US) unless it's a diesel and they're heavy, noise and smelly. Not suited to a runabout. Or my budget.

So I am looking at getting plans for a Zip and a Dyno Jet and combining the two, using a motor/jet from a PWC like the Yamaha Waverunner XL700. It'll need a reversing kit which is OK. That motor is 80hp which is way more than the Zip is designed for, but there are losses with a jet compared to an outboard so I reckon it'd be OK. Fuel and battery would be located in the stern if necessary to bring the weight distribution more in line with having 200lb of outboard hanging off the transom.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this approach? I know there's a twin-engined jet Zip kicking around but I've not managed to find a single-engined one so I don't know whether it's been done before. Feel free to question my sanity, point out obvious issues etc - better than I consider those now than after I've bought and hacked to pieces a half decent Waverunner.....

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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by JimmY » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:38 pm

Hi Sproggy,

I looked at jet ski power for my Squirt, but settled on a classic outboard. There are several well documented jet squirt builds, so they could be your starting point. The main hurdle I saw was the difference in hull "V" between a jet ski and the squirt (zip). If you go the "graft the jet ski hull" route, you need the deal with fairing the two angled hulls together. The other option is building your own jet inlet into the hull and fitting the pump to it. Both have their challenges and your skill set may steer you one way or the other.

There is a Zip builder who I thought found a kit to make a new outboard look like a classic. There were also some other threads on this subject. I just mention it as another option.

There are several successful jet squirts out there, so I don't think you are crazy. It will definitely be more work than building a stock Zip, but if you minded work you wouldn't be building a boat!
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

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sproggy
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by sproggy » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:30 am

Thanks for your reply Jim. In my mind (a dangerous place!) I have an idea that the difference in deadrise between the ski and the Zip might be an advantage when it comes to grafting the two together in the way I've envisaged but this idea is without having looked closely at either craft. The more I think about it, the more I think I'd need to source a donor craft first, before starting the Zip build. Then I can choose an approach from a more informed position and work with an appropriate design from the start rather than changing my mind part way through and having to back-track.

Good call on the jet Squirt - I'll look at examples of those.

As for making a modern outboard look older I'd actually thought about that already - fabricating a more rounded fibreglass motor cover and adorning it with some polished alloy trim and old-style graphics. Interesting to hear there may be a kit for that already in existence - I'll do a search.

Ian

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vupilot
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by vupilot » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:21 am

Jet Zip has been done before so you should have some resources to help if you search the forum history. There was even a twin jet one done. Its shown in the customer photos section under Zips if you havent seen it.

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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by DSR » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:29 am

Hi Ian, welcome to the land of dangerous minds :D

I'm just starting on my jet TNT build myself and I'm also in the mind to doing a jet Zip in a classic gentleman's racer style after the TNT. I've been doing a ton of research on the conversion and if you decide on going in this direction, I'd be more than happy to help in any way I can.

Thanks
Dave
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sproggy
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by sproggy » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:50 am

Thanks for the offer, Dave. However I've been forced to consider the connection the two separate activities 'building the boat' and 'using the boat' and the result of that is the conclusion that the Zip simply isn't the right boat. It's the one I want to build, but I don't have access to enough calm water without walking-pace speed limits to make a flat-bottomed boat viable.

So I'm looking at a 'deep-v' (Glen-L's term - actually a moderate v by most standards) hull instead which will cope better with coastal waters. And such a hull will need a decent sized outboard, not a jet. The Celerity will do the job but it's not enough of a runabout style for my taste. The Geronimo looks better but is too long to build in my garage unless I shorten it 10% in which case I suspect it'll be too "short and fat" with a 7' beam making it almost half the length so I'd be looking at scaling the entire thing down proportionally...... (which would take the beam down to 6'4"). So then I'm looking at changing the deckline and upper hull of the Celerity to make it more of a runabout style and....well....is that what I should really be doing for my first boat build?

This first decision is driving me crazy.... :roll:

Would scaling down the Geronimo be viable, do you think?

Aaarrrgghhhhhhh!

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Dave Grason
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by Dave Grason » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:58 pm

I have read your entire thread and then I looked on Google maps for boating places in your area - just north of London, right? There don't seem to be ANY lakes like the ones we have here in the States in the entire country of England. This is actually a new surprise for me.

I fully see your dilemma. I didn't realize that you Brits were so limited in your options. This will call from some serious creativity. I agree that the Celerity does not have the lines your seeking. It seems to have taken its styling cues from boats more akin to the Lymans - although the Celerity is not a lapstrake design.

I think the Geronimo is already pretty stubby looking. I agree that, if you were to shorten it, the proportions would become skewed. But it is a REALLY good looking boat as is.

Have you thought about there being anyway to just get more space in which to build? - maybe a temporary shelter?

There used to be a guy that was active on the forum a LOT when he was building a Squirt. We built quite a friendship and I learned that, because of his secular work, he really knew his stuff. His name is Graham Knight and he lives in Shepperton in the London area. So I do not believe that is very far from you. He is a man that can solve any problem I've ever seen and I am thinking that he built a temporary shelter to complete his boat. I highly recommend him as a source of amazing amounts of information, especially for builders in the UK. I'm going to send him a private message and see if he will respond. If so, I'll refer him to you.

BTW, I love your avatar. :D
Isn't it amazing!! The person that never has the fortitude to pursue his own dreams, will be the first to try and discourage you from pursuing yours.

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Dave Grason
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by Dave Grason » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:04 pm

Ok, I just sent Graham a PM inviting him to join this discussion. We'll see if he responds.
Isn't it amazing!! The person that never has the fortitude to pursue his own dreams, will be the first to try and discourage you from pursuing yours.

DSR
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by DSR » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:46 pm

LOL, I know what you mean about that first decision....

Unfortunately, looking at pics of the Geronimo, it has about the same "classic runabout" low-deadrise hull design as the Zip, so it sounds like that's not going to work for what you need as designed either. I certainly agree that it would be pretty tough to get a classic runabout look with the Celerity too.

Looking at this situation as if it were my own, my thoughts would be to look at the runabouts with pretty generous freeboard (such as the Nimrod for example) and reloft the design to "lift" the chines and create more deadrise in the hull and add lift strakes, then add the classic planked deck to it. Of course, doing something like that would entirely depend on how comfortable or confident you would feel making such changes in the design. I wonder if you might have a marine architecture firm in your area that you could quiz about it?
I know it sounds like a lot to deal with, but it's a lot more fun building the boat you want to build, as opposed to the boat that you feel you have to build in my deranged little skull. :?

I don't know if that helps at all....
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sproggy
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by sproggy » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:01 pm

Dave Grason wrote:I have read your entire thread and then I looked on Google maps for boating places in your area - just north of London, right? There don't seem to be ANY lakes like the ones we have here in the States in the entire country of England. This is actually a new surprise for me.
We are not completely devoid of lakes! But lakes like you have in the States? Almost certainly not. There's the Lake District (the giveaway's in the name :lol: ) in Cumbria - Windermere, Ullswater etc. There are the Scottish Lochs (which get pretty rough). But both of those areas are a long way from where we live. There are some reservoirs where I think power boating is allowed. But, being an island, the coast and estuaries are are main boating areas.

Our nearest equivalent to your annual Gathering is this:

http://www.bealeparkboatandoutdoorshow.co.uk/

A mere puddle by your standards - you wouldn't even bother to launch a boat there!
Dave Grason wrote:Have you thought about there being anyway to just get more space in which to build? - maybe a temporary shelter?
We have no options in that respect. Any structure, temporary or otherwise, would be subject to the incredibly strict restrictions we have in our 'estate managed' town. The garage I have would never have got built if the same rules applied back then. And there's no space to extend it even on a 'stealth' basis - believe me, I've looked into that before! That's another difference between us and you guys in the States - not only are our lakes smaller but so are our houses and gardens. My limit on build length is absolute. Even a 15' boat would be unfeasibly tight - it would fit but i would'nt get around the ends!
Dave Grason wrote:There used to be a guy that was active on the forum a LOT when he was building a Squirt. We built quite a friendship and I learned that, because of his secular work, he really knew his stuff. His name is Graham Knight and he lives in Shepperton in the London area. So I do not believe that is very far from you. He is a man that can solve any problem I've ever seen and I am thinking that he built a temporary shelter to complete his boat. I highly recommend him as a source of amazing amounts of information, especially for builders in the UK. I'm going to send him a private message and see if he will respond. If so, I'll refer him to you.
Sounds like a useful guy to know! Fortunately for him, Shepperton doesn't have the same planning restrictions that we do. Very few places do..... It's the main thing that keeps our town the lovely place to live that it is, but it's a pain in the proverbial when it comes to doing things like this.
Dave Grason wrote:BTW, I love your avatar. :D
It's an uncanny resemblance. Unfortunately for me.....

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by Bill Edmundson » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:27 pm

Sproogy

:lol: It's an uncanny resemblance. Unfortunately for me..... :lol:

If we can get you in touch with Graham, he's a great guy. He left here on good terms. But, he was going to build a steam launch and moved to a steam power forum.

Bill
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sproggy
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by sproggy » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:51 am

Dave Grason wrote:Have you thought about there being anyway to just get more space in which to build? - maybe a temporary shelter?
sproggy wrote:We have no options in that respect.
In the sleepless hours that I 'enjoyed' last night thanks to our baby I thought more about this. Certainly I shouldn't be able to do anything about increasing space, but that doesn't mean I can't. Rules are there to be broken, right? And what nobody notices, nobody worries about :wink:

I have a 6' wide strip that runs behind the garage between the side wall and a 6' fence. I can't make the entire garage wider without rebuilding it (it would fall down!) but I can make a 5'6" section of it (the middle third of the length, between structural vertical pillars) wider by that much with a clear poly-carbonate roof (unobtrusive). It would have a maximum headroom of 5'10" sloping down to just under 5' in the extended bit so not much, but that would give me a total width of just over 21' in that middle section and the bow could protrude into that section. A bit. Enough for a Barrelback! Only joking....an inboard wouldn't be affordable for me to build. Enough for a standard length Geronimo, but my garage doors are exactly 7' wide so zero clearance for a boat with a 7' beam. And rebuilding the entire front of the garage is a step too far. At least for a first boat :P

I think I'm back to a Celerity. Below the chine, anyway. I'll make the sheerline slightly convex in profile (classic runabout). Start to pull the flare out from around the middle frame and introduce a bit of tumblehome at the transom. It's 25 years since I was trained to do conic projection (design of hulls for flat sheet manufacture - I think you call it something different in the States?) so I'll mock up half of the boat in cheap ply - frames mounted on a solid boarded centre, chine in place as per the plans. Then i can experiment with 1/8" ply above the chine to find frame/transom profiles that work - that give me the shape i want while still being buildable from flat sheet. I can then use those modifed half frames/transom as patterns for the real thing. As I'd do this mockup right-way-up (rather than on the build frame) it'll be easier to see the results - no need to stand on my head.

I know this will give me a wetter boat in rough water, at least aft, but everything's a compromise and I can live with that (form over function). And I'll end up with something that hopefully vaguely resembles the Zip that i want to build while offering the rough water capability that I need if I'm actually going to use the thing.

Now tell me that's a bad idea......

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Dave Grason
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by Dave Grason » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:49 am

sproggy wrote: Rules are there to be broken, right? And what nobody notices, nobody worries about :wink:
That is absolutely the same thing that I would do! I don't know about British Tort law but we have a thing here we call "the right to peacefully enjoy one's property." Neighborhoods and townships here almost always have certain convenants to keep property values high. That's only reasonable and if we did not have these, we would all have to live in our neighbor's trash. But these covenants are always struggling to keep a reasonable balance between maintaining property values and impinging upon a property owner's right to peacefully enjoy his/her property.

Here's another adage that we use a lot here in the states:

It's easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission.

When property owners here do what you're proposing, it's a rare judge that, in court, would demand the property owner to tear everything back out once the work has been completed. And this is especially true if the work and the final project was all done in a very high quality, workmanlike manner. The very first think a judge would look at is whether or not your modifications would impinge on the rights of any of your neighbors. Would any of them suffer any sort of loss because of your work?

The only other caveat is if you had any really anal-retentive neighbors that can't keep their noses on their faces and out of your business. Let's face it. Some people complain when the sun comes up and then again if it doesn't. So, if someone happened to see you mid-project and kicked up a stink while you were still building, the city could shut you down quickly. So, keep it all on the down low and do it quietly. :wink:

Oh... and theoretically speaking, if you WERE to end up in court, I don't think it would do any good if you told the judge: "Well, I cleared this ahead of time with all my friends and fellow boat builders on the Glen-L forum."
That likely will not carry much weight with him. LOL :lol:
Isn't it amazing!! The person that never has the fortitude to pursue his own dreams, will be the first to try and discourage you from pursuing yours.

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sproggy
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by sproggy » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:22 am

Dave Grason wrote:Here's another adage that we use a lot here in the states:

It's easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission.
We use that here too. Hey, it's almost as if we speak the same language :shock: But in this case it may be easier but it's not cheaper! Applying for permission is free, whether approved or not. However applying after the fact ('asking for forgiveness') costs money. Which makes it all the more important to do it quietly.....
Dave Grason wrote:The only other caveat is if you had any really anal-retentive neighbors that can't keep their noses on their faces and out of your business.
Unfortunately we have one of those who is objecting loudly and unreasonably to a joint development that we are planning along with two other neighbours (on our own properties, but close to his). However due to the pitch of the roof of my garage he wouldn't be able to see what I'm talking about doing to it unless he climbed up on his roof. And if he tries that, I hope he falls off it :evil:
Dave Grason wrote:Oh... and theoretically speaking, if you WERE to end up in court, I don't think it would do any good if you told the judge: "Well, I cleared this ahead of time with all my friends and fellow boat builders on the Glen-L forum."
That likely will not carry much weight with him. LOL :lol:
Could be a last resort, that argument. Possibly best kept to myself, though, as strictly speaking we're not allowed to keep a boat in the back garden either! Or a caravan or motorhome (RV). Or pigs or chickens. It's amazing we're allowed to be in the garden ourselves.... :lol:

Talking of speaking the same language..... I'm going to the London boat show later this week to talk to potential materials suppliers and get some more inspiration (as if this forum wasn't enough!). Most things in the bill of materials for the Celerity make sense but can anyone explain what a 'gross' of screws is? I can't get anything definitive from Google, strangely. Is it a measurement or quantity, volume or weight? What does it equate to in units that a dumb Brit might understand?

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Jet Zip?

Post by Bill Edmundson » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:35 am

Sproggy

A gross of screws is 12 dozen. 144. Why it's worded that way? I don't know. It's not that common here.

Bill
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