Squirt vs Bingo

Outboard designs up to 14'

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Two8nine
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Squirt vs Bingo

Postby Two8nine » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:41 am

Hi Glen L.

I'm looking for some advise here. I'm looking to take a notch off the bucket list and build a boat. Time and supplies (and $$) are on the limited side, so I've settled on a smaller power boat.

My initial choice was the Squirt, but being my first serious project in wood, I've made a number of mistakes that are causing some serious issues. I'm still pretty early, and debating whether to cut my losses and restart rather than be stuck with some seriously shoddy workmanship. I'm thinking I might have bit off more than I can chew for a first project.

The other boat I'm looking at is the Bingo, seems fairly comparable despite being a bit larger. From a near total beginners standpoint, which would you recommend? To me it seems the stitch and glue method is more noob friendly - but I may be totally out to lunch here.

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vupilot
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby vupilot » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:14 pm

Having built from both methods I think both are suited to beginners but I think the framed build is easier once you get the building form setup. Stitch and glue is less precise and I think offers more opportunity to mis-align or build a warp into the boat. Its pretty obvious when something doesnt fit right on a framed up build.

What problems have you run into with the Squirt build? We are here to help.

Two8nine
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby Two8nine » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:16 pm

Thanks for the response.

My issues are largely just little mistakes made along the way that I didn't catch until way later. I cut all frame notches to the ones drawn on the plans, and ended up with a pretty poor curve on the shear. (Which I didn't catch until after glueing the shear down.) Similar issues with the chine, no where near enough twist toward the bow, and I miscalculated the positioning pretty bad where they join to the stem. Adding enough wood to get the chines where they need to be would give a pretty weird looking curve. Similar issues with the keel.

Basically lots of sloppy little mistakes. Most of them could probably be fixed with enough time, but at the end of the day I don't think the end result will be satisfactory. Whole thing is DF so not a ton of money in the frame, I'd hate to throw 100s of $ of marine ply over a crummy frame. So I'm thinking it may be best to call it lesson learned and start from scratch with a better idea of how it's done before I get to the really expensive bits.

By your suggestion I'll stick with the squirt, as I've already got the plans and no issues with the building form. Might spend some more time seeing if I can get this one working, but I'm pretty discouraged with the state of it atm.

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vupilot
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby vupilot » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:36 pm

You can probably remove the longitudinals with one of those flush osculating saws. https://www.harborfreight.com/variable- ... 63113.html Build up the notches and try again and only be out the cost of the longitudinals.

The landing of the chine on the stem is not critical as far as the height along the stem is concerned. Just that it lands back from the leading edge the proper amount for fairing. See picture a few posts down in this thread of two Squirts with drastically different chine landings.
In the end it wont matter. viewtopic.php?t=9370

Two8nine
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby Two8nine » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:09 pm

It's actually the horizontal placement of the chine where I messed up. I'd marked it on the stem in different places for each lamination, and was so preoccupied trying to get the chine twist right I mistakenly glued it to the wrong mark, leaving them a good 5/8 too far back. Didn't catch until I'd faired the stem. Leaves the stem pretty messed up. (lesson 1 -- take it slow...)

I've gone and purchased boatbuilding with plywood -- and I think I'll give that a good read before making any major decisions. (lesson 2 -- saving $60 on a book only to waste $200 on wood mistakes is not a sound financial strategy... :roll: )

JimmY
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby JimmY » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:44 am

Why don't you post a few photos of the issues you are having? Probably someone here has overcome something similar. If your frames and building form are solid, you might just need to redo the longitudinals like Vupilot said.

My chine notches are not the greatest, but a little thickened epoxy and they are structurally sound. You are correct in that you want to make sure the faired frame is as straight and true as possible before skinning it. If it isn't, the problems will just propagate.

One thing that helps me in a build when I'm getting ready to do a major glue job, is to do a dry run with all the clamps and tools. I almost choreograph the process so I make sure I have everything handy and I'm not tripping over stuff to get things. Doing this helps you to remember all the little things you need like paper towel, mixing sticks, screws, screw gun, etc... Like everything, practice makes perfect.

Keep at it, we'll get you through this.
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

Hercdrvr
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby Hercdrvr » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:27 am

Let's see some pictures of this so called disaster? Probably nothing batch of two part sticky with saw dust mixed in won't fix.
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PeterG
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby PeterG » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:51 am

Dry fitting/runs are really helpful for assembly, you get a view of how things go together and look for problems.
I find battens are useful. Use them for laying out parts, trimming notches in frames, for fairing the frames and many other steps that involve curves or faired lines. They are easier to bend into place than the sheers or chines but will help with final fitting the notches for them and for laying out where the chines will meet the stem. Make the battens from straight grain (no knots) softwood or the same wood you are using for the boat. You should have a long one, like 12', maybe 3/4" square, for using along the length of the boat. A shorter one, like 8', maybe 1/2" square, for curves going across the boat or other parts with tighter curves. And then a couple of 4' long ones, maybe 3/8" and 1/4" square for smaller parts and even tighter curves. The Boatbuilding With Plywood book will be a great help with how to use them. Only real rule is never nail through them to hold them in place.
Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
Griffin's Law: Murphy was an optimist.

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby Bill Edmundson » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:58 am

I had some long strips 1/8x3/4x18'. left from my canoe build. You can get long flat molding at the box store. This really helps when fairing.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
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BayouBengal
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby BayouBengal » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:22 am

I'd hate to throw 100s of $ of marine ply over a crummy frame

I'm pretty much with the rest of the crew here. There's not too many mistakes in boatbuilding that can't be overcome. From your writeup, I don't see anything that can't be fixed without too much trouble, and don't worry, in the end you'll have a near perfect frame. Send us pictures, lots of them, and I bet we can get you on the right track.

Two8nine
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby Two8nine » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:49 am

Appreciate the responses all. I'll get some pictures up tonight on where it's at.

Should have just started here, might have avoided these issues off the bat. :wink:

PeterG
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby PeterG » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:55 am

No problem, we're all here to help each other. That's the beauty of this forum. Can't wait to see what you have.
Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
Griffin's Law: Murphy was an optimist.

Two8nine
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Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:21 am

Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby Two8nine » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:11 pm

Still working on pictures. Lots of things hard to show.

Couple questions I've come up with though, hoping someone can shed some light on these.

1. If the building form is level, and the frames are level upon them, should the keel be level as well? Or is it a slightly bowed shape overall? Mine humps towards the stem, which seems to be a common issue, but it also seems to be too low at frame 1, yet much too high at both the stem and the transom. Driving me crazy, because it's a straight edge, and everything is level. Might be inaccuracies in the notches, but I'm fuzzy on whether is should be dead flat or not.

2. I think it's a given I'll need to redo the chines, any suggestions on finding the proper angle of 'twist' they need forward? Should I be aiming for a perfectly flat surface between the chine and faired shear, or more rounded? (Specifically forward of the last frame.)

3. Lastly, anyone use ecopoxy? It's the only epoxy I've been able to find locally other than JBWeld in sizes bigger than those little syringes. I'm in rural Canada, so shipping stuff in from the states is just too expensive. Seems to be geared towards encapsulation, but wondering if it would work well for glueing as well as long as the there aren't big voids.

Appreciate the help thus far.

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BayouBengal
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby BayouBengal » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:14 pm

1) It needs to be level. Once your frame is complete, you'll fair the square forward edge of the keel to the rounded edge of the stem. Pictures would help here in diagnosing why it is not level
2) The chine and shear will not be symmetrical during framing, particularly at the bow. They'll need to be faired later on so that your plywood planking will fit flush upon them. In the fairing process, you'll probably need to add a lamination to the chine toward the bow of the boat. Fairing the frame can be a little confounding at first, but don't worry, there's plenty of us here that will coach you through it if you need help. After sending the pictures, we'll be able to advise further, but it may not be necessary to redo the chines
3) I don't know anything about ecopoxy. Being it's your first boat, I suggest you try to use PoxyGrip, GelMagic, or T-88 to ensure you have well glued joints. If you do plan to stick with using a laminating epoxy for gluing, you'll need to add some filler material to the mixture. This free book - https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1000/1906/files/The_Epoxy_Book.pdf?1285685231865784556 published by S3 provides quite an education in epoxy, regardless whether you use S3 products or not.

Thanks for letting us help. I don't even know you, but I know that you're capable of building the Squirt.

PeterG
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Re: Squirt vs Bingo

Postby PeterG » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:51 pm

I don't know the Squirt but in most of the Glen L designs the keel is not level with the building fixture. Upside down on the building fixture it usually angles up slightly from the transom to the frame attached just aft of the stem. Some designs do have the forward part of the keel curve or bowed to meet the stem. Other designs have a straight keel that is faired or shaped into a curve to meet the curve of the stem. Draw a center line on the top face length of the keel board as it sits on the frames (bottom of keel board when the boat is right side up). That line should be at the point of each frame bottom. The side edges of the keel will be above the frame edges if the notches are right depth and the extra keel material will be removed by the fairing process.
Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
Griffin's Law: Murphy was an optimist.


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