Squirt in Manitoba

Outboard designs up to 14'

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Two8nine
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Squirt in Manitoba

Post by Two8nine » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:55 pm

Hi, I posted a while back on a Squirt build I'd run into a bunch of troubles with.

I ultimately decided to restart, as I wasn't too far along, and want to get started the right way. I purchased the Boatbuilding with Plywood book, gave it a read, and replaced my ratty old scroll saw with a band saw for cutting the frames.

I'm waiting on the plywood, but in the meantime I've cut out most of the smaller symmetrical pieces. (Nice to be able to cut out both halves at once.)

Couple questions:

1. I have not yet cut out the notches, as the ones on the plan didn't line up well with the longitudinal's the first time round, how would you suggest (and when) to cut these out? Wait till the chine/shear are ready to go on, or cut them now?

2. with the Squirt will I be fairing the individual frames much beyond the notches, or does the planking not touch them enough to matter?

3. Is some fairing typically done before fastening? Particularly with the keel, there's some big bolts put into areas that require a lot of fairing near the stem. First time round I just drilled larger holes so the bolt head sat lower, but I worry that will negatively impact the strength.

Appreciate any thoughts.

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BarnacleMike
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by BarnacleMike » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:00 pm

1. My personal opinion is that the Squirt is such a long-established design, you'd be safe to go ahead and cut all the notches. As many Squirt projects as there have been, any misalignment in the plans would be a pretty well-documented issue.... and that does not seem to be the case. Just draw and cut as accurately as possible.

2. Once the floor battens are installed, they should be close to level with the projected lines of the frames (on the bottom). The planking on the floor should make good contact with all its mating surfaces along the battens and frames. As I understand it, a slight gap between the hull sides and the sides of the frames is acceptable, but not preferred.

3. Counter-sinking the bolts on the bottom of the keel, as you've described, is about the best you can do. Mine are countersunk a little too much, (about half the thickness of the keel). However, there seems to be no problem at all with the strength of the joint.
-Michael

"How long does it take to build a boat? Until it's finished" — yours truly

Blog (Utility & Zip): http://barnaclemikeboats.blogspot.com/
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JimmY
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by JimmY » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:35 am

Hi 289,

1.) For the batten notches, don't blindly use the plans since the copying process is not 100% accurate. I wrote about this in my build thread in the first post. Measure the location and width from the centerline, and cut based on the measurements. Also, there is a lot of leeway on the size of the battens, so cut them based on what your final milled lumber sizes. I think I used the same measurements for each frame.

2.) Like Mikes says, the bottom plywood will touch along all the frames. Frame 2 will need some significant fairing for this. On the sides, the plywood touched frame 1 along the whole length, but at frame 2 there was a slight gap. Just make sure if there is a gap to encapsulate the edge of the frame before skinning it. Just make sure to NOT screw the plywood down along the frames. Only screw into the longitudinal members. If you screw into the frame edges, it will be like the perforations between stamps (read "CRACK").

3.) Counter sinking the transom knee bolts has to be done. Just make sure they are deep enough so you can fair the keel. I also counter sunk the bolts in the transom and filled them with thickened epoxy. Make sure to use double dipped, hot galvanized bolts or bronze if you can spend the money. These bolts will be fully encapsulated, so stainless is a no-no. I also counter sunk the nuts in the transom knee, so they wouldn't be sticking out and catching on stuff.

Keep in mind, the boat was designed to be strong enough. The designer took into account that bolts would need to be counter sunk so that the hull could be faired. You shouldn't have to "beef up" anything.

Glad to hear you're back at it.
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

Two8nine
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by Two8nine » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:11 pm

Feels like it's been years, illness prevented me from any shop work for six months or so, but back at it as time allows.

I have the frames cut out and assembled, and as recommended I've cut all notches to match those of the pattern.

I'm getting ready to install the keel, and I'm running into the same issue I had with previous attempt. The keel stock is 3/4 inch thick, and this ends up leaving it significantly too shallow to reach the 'peak' needed for frames 1 and (more severely) 2, as the notches themselves are about 3/4 deep. I assume this can be corrected by either adding shims to the notches, or by using a thicker keel. What's the recommendation? Or am I missing something?

I'd be inclined to just use a thicker keel, but that would make it pretty tough to bend I imagine. (Just fill the gap between stem and fair?)

Also went gungho fortifying my building form, since the last one wasn't as sturdy as I thought once I got to bending wood around it. Went a little overboard as there is no room for the knee anymore, will have to cut some notches.

Appreciated.

PeterG
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by PeterG » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:39 pm

Glad you're back at it, you can work at whatever pace that suits you, no judgement here!
So the plans and materials list sometime give confusing info for material thickness. The materials list may state all thicknesses are nominal except where stated as net. But the drawing typically shows actual desired thicknesses. Nominal is expected to be less, like a 1" board is actually 3/4". Net thickness really means actual thickness, for example a 5/8" net will be 5/8" actual.
The drawings for your boat will show enough info and detail for you to figure out the actual thickness of your keel based on how the notches are cut and fit to the frame.
Be aware, most of the Glen L plywood boat designs have a layer of plywood laminated to the keel board to keep it from splitting down the middle. The materials list will tell you the keel board thickness but it's the drawing that says to laminate a 1/4" or 3/8" layer of plywood to that keel board. If your keel board sits too low in the notches, it may be missing the layer of plywood.
That all said, if you picked up already on the nominal/net thing and your keel board is per plan thickness, it's ok to shim the frame notches if they were cut a little too deep, though it doesn't sound like you did.
Sorry this is long. Hope this helped and good luck and most of all have fun!
Last edited by PeterG on Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
Griffin's Law: Murphy was an optimist.

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hoodman
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by hoodman » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:43 pm

I'm not sure how severe the bend in the keel of the squirt is but you should be able to do either of the things you suggested. Shimming the notches or using a thicker keel. Many of the larger boats have a keel laminated on the inside with a layer of plywood as does mine. Bending the slightly thicker keel wasn't a problem on my build.
Matt

Building a Geronimo......!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25139

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hoodman
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by hoodman » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:45 pm

Also, you could glue in place the thinner keel and then laminate a layer of solid wood directly on top of it. So you have at least several options. Just depends on what you want to go with.
Matt

Building a Geronimo......!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25139

PeterG
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by PeterG » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:56 pm

Matt's suggestion of laminating another layer of wood on the keel would work perfectly, great idea!
Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
Griffin's Law: Murphy was an optimist.

Two8nine
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by Two8nine » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:31 pm

Thanks for the suggestions. I had a 2/4 and just ripped down the keel from that. Ended up just shy of 7/8 inch, so it's slightly thicker than the plan but not too much I think.

I'm very slowly setting up, as the placement of the keel/frames was the biggest source of grief for me on my first attempt.

What's the best position for frame 2 in relation to the keel, I find the plans a little vague there. I've got everything 'dry' fit right now, and the keel is perfectly level from the transom all the way to the root of the stem -- is this desirable, or should I drop frame 2 slightly so that the keel begins to curve just past frame 1?

JimmY
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by JimmY » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:30 am

Two8nine wrote:should I drop frame 2 slightly so that the keel begins to curve just past frame 1?


Yes. There is a gentle curve between frame 1 and 2. I had the keel attached to the transom and the Stem/frame 2, and then played around with frame1 to get the keel straight from the transom to frame 1.
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

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hoodman
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by hoodman » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:13 am

Just make sure to double check plans and patterns and make sure you're correct off of the setup level.
Matt

Building a Geronimo......!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25139

Hercdrvr
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by Hercdrvr » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:58 pm

How about a couple pictures so we see what’s going on here.
Matt B

Two8nine
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by Two8nine » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:19 pm

Thanks for the responses. I believe I'm getting there.

Image
This is the keel as it meets the transom, level in all directions.

Image
This is the keel between frames 1 and 2 (right side is frame 2) you can see it now curves very slightly downwards, which I believe is desireable. Note that this is before attempting any bend of the keel to notch into the stem.

Image
This is the same as img #2, but after clamping the keel to fit the notch in the stem. It's actually back to near perfect level, but this is due to a very slight (though less than I expected) hump in the keel. The keel aft of frame 1 is unaffected. (I mean it dips slightly, but couldn't get a sheet of paper in the difference.)

Based on other threads I believe the hump between stem and frame 2 is common, but opinions seem mixed -- my inclination is to ignore the bending altogether and just shim the stem notch and fair the keel later, that would leave the keel mostly level, but maybe 1/16 lower at frame 2, which seems ok based on other responses.

Or do any of you think the slight 'hump' as in image 3 should be left? I've seen a few mention it's intended.

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BarnacleMike
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by BarnacleMike » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:06 pm

You don’t need to shim the stem notch. The keel is designed to bend as it meets the stem notch.

If the “hump” caused by bending the forward end of your keel causes the aft end of the keel to be level.... I’d say you lucked out.

In the end, you want the keel to be flat from the transom up to frame 2. From there, the keel sweeps upward toward the bow.

From what I can tell, your build is progressing normally.
-Michael

"How long does it take to build a boat? Until it's finished" — yours truly

Blog (Utility & Zip): http://barnaclemikeboats.blogspot.com/
Website of Boat Photos: https://michaelsmaddox.wordpress.com

Two8nine
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Re: Squirt in Manitoba

Post by Two8nine » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:41 am

BarnacleMike wrote:If the “hump” caused by bending the forward end of your keel causes the aft end of the keel to be level.... I’d say you lucked out.

In the end, you want the keel to be flat from the transom up to frame 2. From there, the keel sweeps upward toward the bow.
Ok thanks for the reply. Little confused by this bit though. The keel is definitely not flat up to frame 2 after bending to the match the stem, it has a subtle 's' curve to it as described in many other squirt builds. Fortunately the dip is extremely minor aft of frame 1 (maybe 1/64 inch) but the hump between 1 & 2 is probably about 1/4 inch.

If i'm understanding your response, I should have a perfectly level keel all the way up to the base of the stem, and then a curve over the last 8 inches or so. I"m not sure how to accomplish this without generous shimming and trimming -- or am I misunderstanding you?

Also, noob question, but probably important -- frames are counted stern->bow right? So the center frame of a Squirt is Frame 1?

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