Older craftsman saw dilemmas

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fehujber
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Older craftsman saw dilemmas

Postby fehujber » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:43 pm

Ok I am attempting to turn over a new leaf and shed my woodbutcher persona. If I ever reveal my Bullet you'll know why I say woodbutcher as I have lost count of the errors. I recently purchased a used Craftsman 113. table saw. Time to dump the $99 Ryobi. After reading up on it I decided to align it. Rather than spend the bucks for a dial indicator I decided to set up a reference by attaching a block to the miter guage and a screw in the end as a reference point for the blade, and using feeler guages to check the runout. Yes, I marked a reference on the blade and check it at the reference point. I even made myself a set of PALS to adjust the trunion.
After that long winded story here is the problem.
The closest I can get the blade is still about 0.008 in out of square referenced to the miter slot. Does anybody know of any other adjustment or should I remove the trunion assembly and reem out the mounting holes maybe 0.010 in to get the needed adjustment?
Second deliema I can rock the entire trunion ever so little (1-2 degrees) at which time the side of the saw cabinet where the angle adjusting screw passes through flexes. Is it worth adding another plate to the wall to stiffen it up?
Any input will be appreciated

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Caber-Feidh
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Postby Caber-Feidh » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:01 pm

Hybrid, cabinet, or contractor saw?
Some plan to stroll through Saint Peter's Gates, I plan to go through them at 150mph... backwards... in a screaming ball of flame, with a glimmer belt wrapped around my head, and a NOx button in my hand.

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Dave Grason
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Postby Dave Grason » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:06 pm

When I was earning my living as a carpenter, I would have been THRILLED to have the run-out you've got. Tools were always getting banged around, abused, tossed aside, shoved into the back of the truck and then other tools were piled on top and then grabbed up and expected to work. (Hey! Whattsamatter with this darn thing, anyway?)

So if I had just a little wiggle in the blade, I would simply use a test piece of wood to figure where the blade was going to cut and then I knew where to make my marks. But we always had this old saying: "A sharp blade cuts where you want but a dull blade cuts where IT wants." I really think that as long as you keep your blades sharp, you'll do fine with what you already have. It may be that you're expecting a little more than the machine is able to give.

And, along the lines of expecting more than something can give, we have another saying:

"You can't get chicken salad from chicken s**t." LOL :lol:
Isn't it amazing!! The person that never has the fortitude to pursue his own dreams, will be the first to try and discourage you from pursuing yours.

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leakcheck
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Postby leakcheck » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:31 pm

Dave Grason wrote:"You can't get chicken salad from chicken s**t." LOL :lol:



Oh man, don't let me wife in on that one or she will have to rewrite her entire cookbook !

Yeah, I always thought about aligning my table saw, but I don't do anything precise enough to worry about it...heck, I want things to have a little space so I don't squeeze out all of the epoxy !!!!. {That's my story and I'm stickin to it} (Besides i built the tug boat with two pair of Channel locks, a hammer, a four-way screw driver, and Porter Cable Saw-zall, and a square sanding thingamajig ...and not too many clamps..hey, thingamajig must be a real word..I didn't get the red underline like all my other words)

Steve :wink:

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fehujber
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Postby fehujber » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:02 pm

To answer question # 1 Contractors saw, the old sears standard BEFORE they discovered china. I know .008 sounds like a little but if you can get it dead on you can rip really nice joints and even save a lot of jointing. And lets not talk about contractors accuracy ....when I earned my living jerkin levers on hoes and such my saw of choice was a Stihl 070 even for trim.

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kens
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Postby kens » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:44 pm

SO? Whats the mitre slot got to do with anything?
You rip against the fence. Is the fence parrellel to the blade?
Does the wood bind when ripping?

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fehujber
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Postby fehujber » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:06 pm

The miter slot is a dead on immovable parallel refrence to the blade, it is also square with the front edge and you rip fence SHOULD be set up square to it.

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kens
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Postby kens » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:20 pm

wait, I was thinking of the shoe plate around the blade.

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GregH
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Postby GregH » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:31 am

I wish you well on the .008. What are you hoping to get it down to as I don't believe it is possible in the home situation to get 0.

Mind you I've never done a test, but is the accuracy of any home jointer going to be that small already? ;) So even if the TS was out 0.008, trying to joint it closer runs into time vs efficiency of having to adjust every tool that will touch that edge of wood to that same tolerance..One swipe of a piece of sandpaper with a wooden sanding block can ruin all that work setting up the blade.

let it be said I DO know many people that get much pleasure from tying to get it as close to true as possible and again I wish you the best in this. :D
I can't do everything, but I can do something.

DonBing
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Postby DonBing » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:59 am

I think you're telling us you checked measurements. 1) the runout on the blade with feeler gauge and 2) the alignment of the blade to the miter-gauge slot. The alignment should be dead parallel and unless the saw was dropped is a one time adjustment. Loosen the trunnion bolts to the top of the table and tap the table in the direction you need.

A blade runout of .008 is acceptable. It will be less at the arbor flange where you don't want to exceed .010 in. Did you make your measurement w/ a new blade? If your measurement was all over place instead of a smooth higher-lower measurement you probably have a warped blade

An equally important check is motor pully to arbor pull alignment. Just use a straight edge. Thats where you can eliminate most of any vibration

Don

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fehujber
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Postby fehujber » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:11 pm

You know it is amazing I posted a simple question, and for the most part THIS SITE has rebuked the entire concept of achieving the accuracy I am , and even with condecending answers. HOWEVER the same question asked the same way of another woodworking site met with sincere help and suggestions. It seems that the other side considers proper alignment as within .002 and this site considers that stupid and ridiculous. It seems thatat .002 of square much of the jointing (with the right blade) is eliminated and kickback and burning in hardwoods is eliminated. I would have thought better of this community, apparently I was and am wrong.

basilkies
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Postby basilkies » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:16 pm

fehujber wrote:You know it is amazing I posted a simple question, and for the most part THIS SITE has rebuked the entire concept of achieving the accuracy I am , and even with condecending answers. HOWEVER the same question asked the same way of another woodworking site met with sincere help and suggestions. It seems that the other side considers proper alignment as within .002 and this site considers that stupid and ridiculous. It seems thatat .002 of square much of the jointing (with the right blade) is eliminated and kickback and burning in hardwoods is eliminated. I would have thought better of this community, apparently I was and am wrong.


Your problem is you are asking a carpenter to give you advice on cabinet work and then get upset when the carpenter isn't good at it!

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fehujber
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Postby fehujber » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:09 pm

I'm terribly sorry, but when I read things like " 50 mph furniture" and see pictures of workmanship that I thought was exemplary I thought I was talking to cabinetmakers. I guess the standard I was aspiring to emulate and achieve is already behind me. Sorry for the trouble.

upspirate

Postby upspirate » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:42 pm

I just believe that the accuracy that you are talking about is just not necessary in boat building.

You can get the lumber milled or cut as accurate as you want,but when it comes down to fitting,it all is done by hand,IE: faring,sanding twisting bending etc.

You cut the wood to that close tolerances,then have to hand plane to get things to fit.Plus if you are using epoxy, a tight joint is not even preferred, as it will be a weak,glue starved joint.

Yes we want to have our boats look like a piece of art or furniture,but you achieve this in the final hand fitting.

I'm not implicating you turn out a piece of junk,it's just not that there are many tight square things on a boat

I have turned out two boats from scratch,restored one & built them commercially.All I've ever used was hand& hand powered tools & they turned out nice.Only I knew where the flaws were!

Just get out & build & have fun!!!!!
:D

J Patroni
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Postby J Patroni » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:25 pm

When I placed a phone call to Barry for info, he informed me that
machinists and ex machinists make the worst boat builders. I am an ex machinist. I took no offense to his comment. As I started my build it became more clear every day that he was right. While tight tolerances are a nice thought, they are not in overall evaluation a necessity when building a wood boat. Two pieces for chines curved differently. Four pieces for sheers formed differently. Hence, all the tight tolerences in the world will not overcome the differentials from one piece of wood to the next. You have to work around each piece of wood you use. Now I don't subscribe to working in a sloppy fashion because of these differences, but I do realize that we are not building spaceships or nuke reactors. This also does not mean we cannot build clean/beautiful boats. I would like to have been able to watch the boat builders that worked for Chris Craft, Gar Wood and the rest of the old time boat builders. I bet if we were able to watch them we would find that they were not perfectionists either. And they are held to high esteem.

In short, Lets not get carried away! Lets enjoy what we do and share the experience with each other.
If you don't build it now, You will regret it later! Already regreting it

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http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee255/jtpatronimfg/

Checkmate Restoration
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