Older craftsman saw dilemmas

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Dave Grason
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Postby Dave Grason » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:02 pm

J Patroni wrote:I would like to have been able to watch the boat builders that worked for Chris Craft, Gar Wood and the rest of the old time boat builders. I bet if we were able to watch them we would find that they were not perfectionists either. And they are held to high esteem.


I have the book: "The Legend of Chris Craft." It talks about this very thing. The process used at CC was that the boats were built by farmers working in teams of 2 each when they had time away from farming. But a boatwright would watch the assembly line and when one team ran into a problem, he would go fix it. Once fixed, the farmers would take over again.

Now doesn't THAT put a different slant on things?!
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Nova SS
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Postby Nova SS » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:39 am

Please take the following with a grain of salt as its JMHO :oops:

BUT anything mass produced be it cars, TV's, boats or whatever will not be perfect. Its just the nature of the beast. There will be a target spec that they will aim for but in the end a whole range of tolerances for each part will be acceptable. Its the only way you can mass produce things and still keep the cost down to a reasonable level so that you can sell more then one or two pieces. SO there is no doubt that Chris Craft or other builders of that day, or today for that matter, did/do NOT build their boats perfectly. If they did nobody but the super rich of the day could have afforded them and that just wasn't the case.

.008" out of true on a table saw blade is very small.(roughly the thickness of three sheets of writting paper) :wink: As long as your guide is at a 90 degree angle to the arbour of the blade your cuts will still be true you'll just have slightly wider kerfs and slightly more sawdust will be produced.

And honestly even if the cuts were slightly out of true it would in the end make no difference in the quality of the end product. Wood is a very forgiving medium to work in. Unlike metal where being .008" out would likely be a real problem wood is not like that.

I wouldn't be so sure that you will ever be able to see the difference between your boat and, in your opinion, the "sloppy poorly constructed" boats built by others. :roll: There are some beautiful boats on this site. Many that could rival any professionally built boat and not a single one of them, I would hazard to guess, were built to the tight tolerances your talking about. Having a tighter tolerance then required does not nessacarily build a better product but it will for sure make it more expensive, time consuming, and difficult to build.

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leakcheck
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Postby leakcheck » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:49 am

I have always thought about how expansion and contraction work in boatbuilding with plywood also. When you build a house there is a specification for how far apart to leave plywood joints to account for expansion and contraction, not many people follow them, but that is probably why it is most pronounced on a roof when you see the seam lines...and I am not talking from improper thickness or snow load...I guess once you have it all held together with epoxy and glass you are forcing it not to be able to expand and contract. Beside, I think expansion joints in a boat would not be a good idea. Even the ones in bridges fail sometimes !

Steve

Damn, this is off topic again...whodathunkit...okay, I cut the plywood with a saw that is not aligned and it worked fine. (Okay, I am back on topic)

upspirate

Postby upspirate » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:03 pm

Can a saw be aligned accurtely after 3-4 beers anyway????!!!! :shock: :roll: :lol: :wink: :wink:

J Patroni
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Postby J Patroni » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:27 am

When I purchased my Delta table saw it was in the set up directions to
have the rip fence out of parrallel by 1/64" (.016). The outbound end of the blade was to be 1/64" open from the inbound edge. Supposedly this
is to keep the upper surface from splintering out on the part you wanted to keep. The same set up specs were included with my Grizzly table saw.

The price range between power tools doesn't mean that the lower price tools will do less of a job. They may wear out quicker, but that is not written in stone. I mentioned the Grizzly products. Since Corian can be abrasive to a metal surface I purchased one of their 10" table saws for much of the rough work. I figured if I got 2 years out of it I could throw it away and it wouldn't owe me a penny. Well, it is 10 years old now and still working as well as when new. On the other hand the Delta (at twice the cost) is long gone. Go figure!


Thanks for the info Dave, I bought that book several months ago but have not sat down to read it yet. I will now.
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Caber-Feidh
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Postby Caber-Feidh » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:30 am

fehujber wrote:To answer question # 1 Contractors saw, the old sears standard BEFORE they discovered china. I know .008 sounds like a little but if you can get it dead on you can rip really nice joints and even save a lot of jointing. And lets not talk about contractors accuracy ....when I earned my living jerkin levers on hoes and such my saw of choice was a Stihl 070 even for trim.


.008 sounds like the grand canyon to me. Assuming you have 6" of length in the blade at your measurement that would make an 8' panel out of true by more than 1/8" That is not in any way acceptable for quality work. Depending on alignment, that is more than the thickness of the sheeting on a 16' boat side. Man, anyone that thinks that is acceptable must be the microbaloons sales dude's best friend! Fine for sheeting a roof, I guess, but not any form of quality work (.0013" will be 1/64" for 8' that is acceptable, Again, assuming 6" of blade exposed along the table)

Unfortunately, about the only adjustment you will find is going to be the trunnion mount slots. Square them to the blade, Your home made gauge should work fine. Your case flex is typical of contractors (you should see the new chinese stuff, more flex than at golds gym!)

I would ream the holes, care not to crack casting, recommend a small grinder rather than a drill bit. Slow, and test-fitting all the way. Get the trunnion to true first. Then bolster the flexie side with some .125" stock.

Contractors have a habit of flexing under load, after you have it setup make a few test cuts in a material to similar density as your project, checking squareness with a good qual square.

Just a side note, most contractors will do better than you expect with a little work, but they are susceptible to vibration (from that gigantic Santa clause belt) Use one of the link-belts.

Yes, set blade to slot, then the fence to the gauge.

With work any saw should be able to hit .005" over 2' Any more than that, and you need to keep working. Most woodworking begins at the table saw, if it's not as close to perfect as possible nothing ever fits right, damn frustrating to work with cock-eyed parts.
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Nova SS
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Postby Nova SS » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:58 pm

To me I'm not so sure that .008" out is the end of the world and that all your cuts will be untrue. IF your fence/guide is indeed at a 90 degree angle to the arbour of the blade then your cuts have to be true no mater how long they are. NOW your saw cuts will however be wider by the same .008" than they would have been had the blade been true.

For cutting big pieces (full sheets of ply for example) where using a guide/fence is difficult one normally marks the cut with a pencil/chaulk line or whatever and then just simply follows the mark while cutting. I dont see how the blade being .008" out will make the cut untrue as long as your original mark is true and of course you follow the line. Again the only thing I see happening is your kerf being wider then it should be by the amount the blade is untrue.

Maybe I'm out to lunch but I dont see this as a huge problem :?

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Postby FDMSIV » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:05 pm

The amount of run-out or whatever doesn't really matter in the end. IF you keep the material against the fence you are going to end up with a cut that is +/- the runout. Last time I checked a tape measure is usually divided into 1/16ths, or 0.0625 in. A pencil line is probably 1/64th or 0.0156 in, a marking knife is a little more accurate, but just in the marking of the material you are looking at a huge amount of error compared to the run out of the table saw.

These number still don't account for the expansion and contraction of the wood, the tape measure, the table saw top, the blade, etc. etc.

From my recollection of the plans (they have somehow managed to walk off) there were only inches and maybe a 1/2 or 1/4, but I think a quarter inch was the smallest division on the plan. If the plans were detailed down to 1/1,000 the smallest amount of inaccuracy would be killer. Most of the reason that amateurs (including myself) can build these boats is because we can measure and cut wood somewhere in the neighborhood of the 1/64th in thick line laid out with a tape measure whose accuracy is +/- a couple of thousands of an inch.

If the tolerance was +/- 1/10 in I would have thrown in the towel a long time ago.

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Caber-Feidh
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Postby Caber-Feidh » Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:00 pm

You are not cutting with a laser, the plate of the blade is going to either push the material into the fence, or pull it away, depending on the skew angle.

I guess you could ghetto-rig the whole mess by skewing the fence to match the blade. Why not take the time to set the tool up correctly?

Run-out would be a dif matter, time for new bearings, and blade. That wouldn't throw accuracy off, just make an over-sized kerf, and allot of extra noise.

Speaking of table saws... is it Microsoft compatible?
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leakcheck
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Postby leakcheck » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:36 pm

FDMSIV wrote:The amount of run-out or whatever doesn't really matter in the end. IF you keep the material against the fence you are going to end up with a cut that is +/- the runout. .



I agree. And unless we are all checking every piece of wood that we use with a moisture meter and then allowing for proper shinkage we will never get the cut that perfect anyway. Who is running around in a hermetically sealed boat these days ??

Steve

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ED3
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Postby ED3 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:18 pm

fehujber wrote:To answer question # 1 Contractors saw, the old sears standard BEFORE they discovered china. I know .008 sounds like a little but if you can get it dead on you can rip really nice joints and even save a lot of jointing. And lets not talk about contractors accuracy ....when I earned my living jerkin levers on hoes and such my saw of choice was a Stihl 070 even for trim.


If this 113. doesn't have a fully machined arbor (including flange), you're SOL. The flange on every 113. I have seen including my own is "press fit". It is not a precision design. You can try anything under the sun to improve it, and it won't improve it. I have wasted more time, than I care to reveal, trying to make the 113. the saw it will never be. My solution for bind and burn,
I threw a 2 HP monster on it. These saws weren't meant for that much weight on their skimpy trunion system and I had to weld angle on the motor support just to eliminate deflection, but she has held and is used exclusively for ripping .

I have considered having a fully machined arbor w/flange, but realised it is not worth it.

Keep a jar on the floor "next" to the saw. Every time you curse at it and it's poor accuracy, put a dollar in the jar ( quarter depending on how much you use it ). By this time next year, you can buy one of these

Image

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leakcheck
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Postby leakcheck » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:07 pm

upspirate wrote:Can a saw be aligned accurtely after 3-4 beers anyway????!!!! :shock: :roll: :lol: :wink: :wink:



Have you ever met a boat buidler that stops at tree or four beers anywhay?

Steve

upspirate

Postby upspirate » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:47 pm

That was just the preliminary beers to get started& pick up the tools!!!!! :shock: :lol:

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kens
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Postby kens » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:17 pm

.008" is not gonna runout at the end of a 8' rip cut. It should only mean that the kerf is .008" wider. The rip cut is still against the fence.
Besides, most of the boat build is custom made anles, bevels, etc. Only the longitudinals would really be rip cut, everything else is custom cuts.

Nova SS
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Postby Nova SS » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:09 pm

kens wrote:.008" is not gonna runout at the end of a 8' rip cut. It should only mean that the kerf is .008" wider. The rip cut is still against the fence.


My thoughts exactly

kens wrote:Besides, most of the boat build is custom made anles, bevels, etc. Only the longitudinals would really be rip cut, everything else is custom cuts.


good point as well


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