Building The Vera Cruise

Designs for inboard or outboard power

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Milhouse
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby Milhouse » Wed May 30, 2018 8:56 pm

I'd imagine the momentary switch recommendation is so that you don't forget to tun it off and then run the bilge pump for a long time with it dry. The float switch will keep it on if there is an actual leak. only issue would be if the switch fails as a open then you need to rely on the manual switch.

Your diagram from newwiremarine looks reasonable and I agree with Steve that in order for manual mode to work you need to connect terminal 2 to +12VDC
Jim
16' Ski Boat Restoration
17' Overnighter Sloop

I'd rather have a $h!tty meal than an $h!tty resume because a totally awesome resume will feed me steak one day - Steve Poltz

neel thompson
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby neel thompson » Thu May 31, 2018 3:08 am

Carl... Check out this bilge pump switch. It looks like the light comes on when the pump runs, whether you are in the manual mode or auto.

https://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Pumps-82 ... ump+switch

Denon Osterman
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby Denon Osterman » Thu May 31, 2018 1:55 pm

Quick follow up on the specific wiring - this is the circuit I would use. It has a manual switch and a float switch (no 3 way switch for "auto" mode, as forgetting to leave it in auto means the pump will not turn on even if the float activates, and that scares me).

Wiring diagram.png


Apologies for the lack of prettyness - MS paint can only do so much! The way this circuit works is as follows - if the manual switch OR float switch turn on (or both together, which is fine), then both the LED and pump turn on together. Only if both switches are off, do the the pump and LED turn off.

In terms of wire gauge, valid point that it's a voltage drop and not ampacity issue in what you'd spec things for (as ampacity - your original concern - is not even close to the "limit" with the spec'd gauges). That being said, the numbers we're talking here are really low - bear with me as I get into everyone's favorite subject...math! Or, just skip the next few paragraphs to the line break for the conclusion. Feel free to correct me - I've had a long day at work and am running through this quickly as a distraction, so I may have messed up or dropped a decimal point somewhere :oops:

If your pump is on a 5 amp fuse it's a safe bet that it operates on significantly less than that - I'd guess closer to 3 amps, but let's do a "worst case" scenario. 5 amp at 12 volts means that your pump is 2.4 ohms (as R = V /I). Now let's think about how much resistance a set length of wire will do. For demonstrations sake, I'll use the 15 feet you're referencing. 10 gauge wire has 1 ohm per 1000ft, and 16 has 4 ohm per 1000 ft. That means for 15 feet of wire the resistance of 10 gauge wire is 0.015 ohm, and 16 gauge wire is 0.060 ohm.

Last but not least we need % voltage drop. With 10 gauge wire, your total resistance is 2.415 ohms (2.4 from your pump, 0.015 from your wire) - and with 16 gauge, it's 2.460 (2.4 +0.06). That means with 10 gauge wire, your voltage drop due to the wire will be 0.015/2.145 = 0.006 or 0.6%. With 16 gauge wire, your voltage drop due to the wire will be 0.060/2.460 = 2.4%. Is this bigger than 0.6%? Definitely. Is it enough to remotely matter, in my opinion? Not at all. And this was the worst case scenario - if the pump only draws ~3 amps, your voltage drop due to wiring almost halves...now you're under 2% drop. I'd start to feel leery at 5%, but you're not actually running into issues until around 10% as Matt noted. It's worth pointing out that "power" drop is the square of voltage drop - so it starts to become an issue more quickly than you'd think. At 10% voltage drop, you've only got 80% of your pumping capacity - but at 3% voltage drop, you've still got 94% pumping capacity.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ok, the math's over - end result, 16 gauge wire at 15 ft will give you - at worst - a 2.5% voltage drop (vs 0.5% for 10 gauge). I promise you'll never notice that 2% - but you *will* notice the cost savings across 16 gauge wire, connectors, etc. For the LED indicator, the same logic applies, and I bet it's not even a 15 foot run - a random search on west marine shows that they come with 26 gauge wire (which sounds about right to me). Similarly, if you're *buying* your indicator, you don't need (or want!) a resistor. That's only if you're making it yourself from a raw LED.

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mrintense
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Thu May 31, 2018 3:32 pm

Well now I am certainly wondering about all of this. I decided to do a little more checking.

First off, I mentioned 15 feet for my longest run, but it was actually 30 as I forgot to double it for the return circuit. Assuming a 5 Amp draw for the pump, and a 3% max voltage drop overall, the AYBC chart shows 12 AWG for a 30 foot run.

Also, I do not think I am going to be powering 2 float switch/ pump pairs from one three way switch as shown in my original drawing. I need to think about this more , but for now, I think that the AYBC chart data indicating 12 AWG for the wiring is the safest way to go.

DC_wire_selection_chartlg.jpg
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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mrintense
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:24 am

So after a week off from building due to health reasons, I think I am ready to get back into it. Thanks everyone for the input on the bilge wiring. Since I already have the 10 AWG I will use that even though I could have gone with 12 AWG.

Bilge paint has had enough time to fully cure so no concerns laying the floor boards back down. Initially I am going to try and get the seat box tops made. I may start on the cabinet before moving to the upper cabin because I need to use up some of my plywood before buying more.
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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Milhouse
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby Milhouse » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:45 am

Glad you are feeling better Carl!
Jim
16' Ski Boat Restoration
17' Overnighter Sloop

I'd rather have a $h!tty meal than an $h!tty resume because a totally awesome resume will feed me steak one day - Steve Poltz

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specialk
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby specialk » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:59 pm

Carl .. I know I am late to this debate. ..
I have one bilge pump that operates by the switch on the console...
The other bilge pump operates by the float...and is always on...my thought on that was if I got into a rain storm on the way home from fishing or camping...and left the plugs in...I would be covered. ..

P.S. was in Port Authur...for a month. ..I thought about messaging you to see if you were working on your build...but we stayed so busy could not get any free time....maybe next trip...
Kelly...1st Boat...Flats Flyer
2nd Boat.....?

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mrintense
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:20 am

Thanks Jim and Kelly

Kelly, feel free to contact me if your in the area however Port Arthur is quite a distance from my house. Probably something like 5 or 6 hours.

Well the oven has returned with a vengeance. It's been averaging 98 plus for two weeks now. Makes it uncomfortable to say the least. Oh well, I can deal with it. It also means a long boating season when I finally get done.

So far this weekend I am working on the seat boxes, getting the hinged tops started and figuring out how the flip up extensions will be mounted. The tops will actually be two pieces. One section inboard to mount the flip up extension to and then the main hinged top. I'll be adding hardwood edges to all the plywood so its easier to do that before cutting the top into two pieces.

The smaller piece inboard will mount to the top of the seat box frame and then have the flip up extension hinged to it. This will be a bit clearer when I get to that point.

IMG_20180602_090231.jpg
This shows approximately how the flip up extension will be mounted. Its a bit low here.


IMG_20180603_105758.jpg
Making the hardwood edges for the exterior edges.
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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mrintense
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:06 am

Beginning to add the hardwood edges.

Neel, this picture's for you! :lol: :lol:

IMG_20180603_125956.jpg
Measure my clamp distance? No I'm not that anal!!
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

neel thompson
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby neel thompson » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:26 am

You are amazing Carl.... Red, blue, red, blue..... perfect spacing.... You have set a very high clamping bar for the rest of us "Crooked Clampers".... I did notice that the third clamp is not 100% parallel to the panel..... My eyes must be playing tricks on me. Cant be so !!

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Milhouse
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby Milhouse » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:15 pm

You have set a very high clamping bar for the rest of us "Crooked Clampers"


LOL :lol:
Jim
16' Ski Boat Restoration
17' Overnighter Sloop

I'd rather have a $h!tty meal than an $h!tty resume because a totally awesome resume will feed me steak one day - Steve Poltz

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mrintense
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:27 pm

The red and blue alternating was quite by accident! Maybe I am subconsciously anal!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Since Sunday I've been working on getting the seat box tops fitted with hardwood edging. The first phase of that has been accomplished.

IMG_20180605_170015.jpg


IMG_20180605_170027.jpg


The next step is that these will be cut into 2 or 3 pieces. Not sure yet, but the inboard edges will extend over the side approximately 2 inches to form the pocket for the flip up extension. It will be attached to the seat box frame top and then cut short of an internal landing. I'll add additional hardwood edges on the cut edges. The outboard side may or may not be cut depending upon how the hinging works out.

The majority of the top (the center piece) will be hinged to allow access to the seat box interior.

The reason for the inboard edge being cut is so that I have someplace to attach the flip up extension to and still allow the lid to be hinged for opening.It'll be more clear after I get a bit further along.

Here'a picture I posted earlier to help with visualizing this.

IMG_20180602_090231.jpg
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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mrintense
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:07 pm

I decided to get the major cut out of the way tonight so I can focus on the additional hardwood edges tomorrow. This shows how the seat top is cut. The narrow piece will be fastened and epoxied to the seat box frame and will support the flip up extension. The wider piece will be hinged to open and allow access to the interior. Both of these will get hardwood edges on the cut line.

IMG_20180605_195636.jpg


Doing some rough fitting, it looks like the outboard edge will need to be cut a bit as well to allow the lid to be hinged correctly. I'll know more when I can play around with it more.
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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Milhouse
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby Milhouse » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:22 pm

I think i finally got what you are saying; took me a minute :D

What sort of hinges will you be using for the flip up extension and seat storage?

Will you be mortising them in to hide them? If so the technique I use is to double side tape the hinges on where you want them, then carefully trace around them with a scalpel (light touch and then gradually harder (keep its from following the grain), route out with a tiny router and then chisel out the rest.

Brusso makes very nice (i.e.$$$$) hinges
Jim
16' Ski Boat Restoration
17' Overnighter Sloop

I'd rather have a $h!tty meal than an $h!tty resume because a totally awesome resume will feed me steak one day - Steve Poltz

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DrBryanJ
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby DrBryanJ » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:37 am

Carl: Looks good. That last picture helped me understand your intent. Does that small piece give enough support? I'd be afraid the force on the cantilever would cause it to give way. When you add the hardwood edge, I'd make it wide enough to put a block under the edge inside the box for greater support against the downward moment on the edge toward the center of the boat. I think I would also bolt it in place rather then using screws. I may be over think things, but I would rather overbuild.
Bryan

Building a malahini "Mona Lisa"

My wife said "If I build a boat, she's getting a divorce."


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