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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:48 pm
by Lowka53
mrintense wrote:Wow, Rod, I hadn't heard that before about the angle of the transom! Thank God for this forum to let me know about these things before I start. I sent off an email to Glen L this afternoon with some questions. Hopefully the answers will allow me to continue forward with the I/O. I still would rather use that than an O/B although I will consider both equally.
:lol: I suggest you buy the book ... fo/12-431/ It is more for pure inboard installation but does have a section on i/o units that is where I fist found out about it.

Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:15 am
by mrintense
Lowka53 wrote:I suggest you buy the book ... fo/12-431/ It is more for pure inboard installation but does have a section on i/o units that is where I fist found out about it.
Actually I do have that book and I missed that part. Went back and looked and sure enough, there it was. Also saw it in the plywood building book in a drawing.

Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:24 pm
by mrintense
I've paid a visit to Austin Fine Lumber today to get a feel for the place, and to get some idea of what lumber I can get.

Here's what I found so far:

They carry African Mahogany and white Oak with the Mahogany available up to 14 feet in length and the oak up to about 12 feet. A bit short for some of the items but could be handled by splicing.

Their marine plywood is Aquatek brand Meranti

The salesman, Paul that I talked to was friendly and helpful and willing to work with me. The lumber yard is convenient o my location (about a 25 minute drive)

Prices are $5.28 bd ft for mahogany, $3.28 bd ft for white oak

The plywood was expensive a 3/4" sheet was $129.00 (whew!!)

I'm going to shop around a bit more and see what the other two retailers can offer (Houston and San Antonio)

Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:10 am
by belphil
Hi Carl,
Have a look to this: 1.6L 4 cylinder Mercruiser Vazer marine engine
This engine enables boat layouts that are impossible with other types of propulsion. It allows the Vazer to fit neatly beneath the rear seat or casting deck of smaller boats. Class leading driving experience with ultra-low noise and vibration. Enables improved access to the water for swimming and water sports. This engine would be coupled to a sterndrive unit that is approximately 4" shorter than current drives.
1.6L (98 CID) GM based engine
100 hp
5600-6000 rpm
573 lbs

Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:54 pm
by mrintense
Well a few pieces of information today.

I emailed two other lumber yards within a few hours of my home and was surprised to see considerable differences in the prices of plywood as well as hardwoods. So now I have to re-evaluate and consider whether I want to go locally (and pay more) or go further out and pay either freight or gas in my SUV.

What bother's me about this is the differences are quite substantial so either one of the two places is lying or confused or there really is a difference.

The other little tidbit of news is that I found a link to a smaller (and lighter) diesel engine from Hyundai (with attached Mercruiser sterndrive) that falls within the weight limitations of my boat if I go with the I/O option (my preference). I haven't had time to evaluate that either but I certainly will.

Update (10 minutes later) well so much for that idea. engine runs approx 31k clams. Too rich for me!!!

Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:10 pm
by kens
If weight is a concern, notice that that Hyndai diesel is only available mated to a Bravo drive,. Bravo is heavier than an Alpha.
That little Hyndai could bolt up to a ZF 63IV v-drive, and that would likely be lighter than the I/O, and more streamlined underwater componants.

Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:55 pm
by jamundsen
there is a lot of difference in pricing on ply. There is a place in Tampa that gets double the price that I pay at World Panel. I think they buy from World Panel and resell it. It pays to shop around.

Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:59 pm
by Bill Edmundson
I get a lot of my lumber from Hardwoods of Alabama. I think the same company is Hardwoods of Houston.


Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:37 am
by mrintense
Lumber - Just when I thought I had it figured out!!

So I was all ready to order my lumber two days ago . I had compiled a purchase list and submitted a request for quotes to various lumber yards based upon board foot prices previously obtained from each yard.

Well to my surprise the prices were quite different than I expected. (i.e. more) I got on the phone with one of the yards and tried to understand why there was a difference. So it seems that board feet prices are used when the lumber is sold "random random" (no milling) and linear feet prices are used when the lumber is sold "milled". Furthermore the random random lumber will be thicker than the milled lumber (this is expected), but it led to confusion on my part about the thicknesses to use for my boat.

So I went back to my references and re-read everything. As best I can tell, when the plans call out for 1" lumber they mean before milling meaning that you tell the lumber yard you are interested in 1" lumber (before milling). This means that what you actually end up putting in your boat is lumber that is approximately 3/4" thick.

Where the confusion lies is the reference to buying random random in some of the references I looked at. This would seem to imply that you obtain random random lumber (which will be closer to 15/16" in thickness) and then cut your frames from that. Meaning of course that what you end up putting in your boat is 15/16" thick frames. However, I am unsure as to the finish quality of this material and whether or not it will need to be planed anyway (meaning of course that it will be thinner again).

So which one is it? The random random is less expensive but requires additional work (I think). It is also harder to judge what sizes to get in order to have enough material to make all your frames. The milled lumber is more expensive but easier to work with and easier to figure out quantities needed.

My feeling is that the milled lumber is the answer, besides which I don't have a planer or access to one. My main concern here is that I don't end up putting too thin lumber into my frames. Is a 3/4" thickness okay, strength wise, when making the frames?

Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:35 am
by Iggy
Lumber is definately a head scratcher for us newbies!

I think you got it, I'll just see if I can't help carify a bit more.

Rough cut lumber is what you get when you order material, designated in quarter inch thickneses like 4/4 (four quarters of an inch or 1" overall) or 8/4 (=2" lumber). This is the 'first' cut of material from the original logs and is cut rather quickly so the edges are rough and the thickness will vary a touch. The lumber edges might not be perfectly straight either.

Random/Random means there is no present dimension, whatever the log yeilds and the mill decides to chop in terms of length is what you can get. Most of my rough cut 4/4 (1") Sapelle ended up 13' long and between 4 and 13" wide, which worked out pretty good for me, little wastage.

Now, the lumber stores don't sell a lot of rough lumber, they sell mostly finished lumber that is more attractive and fetches a better price. The get the rough material planed down and straight-edged to create a finished piece. They are still paying for the full thickness in terms of material costs, but then add finishing costs (labour) to the price per foot. The consumer pays for it all.

The Glen-L bill of materials gives you nominal sizes for thickness, which means anything calling for 1" thick is saying 1" from rough cut, but it can actually use anything down to 3/4" in thickness when 1" is specified. My scaled patterns showed 7/8" lumber for my battens, chines, etc.. which is what I got my material planned down to.

My 2 cents on lumber... particularly boatbuilding lumber. Unless you happen to be close to where they sell a lot of quarter-sawn boat-suitable lumber, you are going to pay for shipping no matter what. Not a lot of mahogany tree's here in Alberta (none actually) so I opted to buy from a supplier that knew exactly what I needed and could do the selection for me. I bought Random/Random 4/4 quatersawn Sapelle lumber then asked the supplier to have it planned down to 7/8" thick and 1 straight edge that I could use on my table saw fence. I had them bundle it and ship it to a local depot that I picked it up from a few weeks later.

So while I bought random/random rough cut, they shipped it to me ready to cut into frames on my table saw/band saw/jig/sabre saw. Instead of the cost of planning and shipping being built into the lineal pricing, it was a seperate line-item cost on my invoice. Planning 100 board feet was about $150, Shipping (along with all my plywood) was about $250. My board foot price was $7.50 for Sapelle, which included the original shipping to get it from Africa to the port of Vancouver, BC, Canada.

3/4" thick is more than enough, provided the lumber is the right material AND the right CUT... as in, grains in the right direction, either Quatersawn or Riftsawn, where the grains are up & down when the lumber is laying on its long side. Grain direction will have a big effect on your frame's resistance to splitting.

I had 3 basic choices for buying my lumber:
1. Buy rough cut lumber, plane it down yourself.
2. Buy rough cut lumber and have someone plane it for you.
3. But finished cut lumber.

I opted for #2, and would do it again. I don't own a thickness planer and it would really be a 1 time thing.

Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:25 am
by mrintense
Thanks for the clarification Iggy. You've confirmed what I suspected about the thickness issue as well as what I thought I understood about the rough cut material.

What I haven't figured out yet is how to determine what sizes and how much of the rough lumber to get (if I decide to go this route). When considering this, I am taking scaled copies of the frame pieces directly from the blueprints and laying them in different patterns on various scaled board sizes, trying to find the best combination. This works fine as long as the lumber is a known length and width. But for random random lumber the lengths and widths are not consistent so this approach is only partially useful.

Since I have to buy a portion of my lumber now instead of all of it (due to budgetary restrictions), trying to get the most "bang for the buck" is a higher priority. However, there is also the stress factor involved in trying to figure out how to do this with random random lumber.

I'd be interested in what other's have done to figure out what sizes and lengths of random random to buy.

I've worked out a purchase plan based upon milled lumber that satisfies my current needs but it may not be the least expensive approach. It allows me to build most of the frames but does leave me short for the transom and the other plywood components (i.e. stem,breast hook, skins). I figure I can come up with the money for those by the time I need them. Of course I will spend more on shipping this way but that cannot be avoided. Even if I buy random random, I will not have enough to buy everything. and I am not willing to wait several months until I am ready.

Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:51 pm
by jamundsen
I bought my mahogany from Craigslist. It worked out to about $4 bd ft but was all random random most about 13 ft long with various widths and thickness ranging from 5/4 to 8/4 and 4 inch wide to 8 inch. I bought a planer for $325 used and have milled all my wood. It makes a lot of dust even with a collector. But I dont have to wait for any size I need. It does require some extra shop space.

Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:45 am
by JasonG
I found a dewalt 734 planer at a pawn shop that was barely used and was able to make an even swap for it with something I had but never used


Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:03 am
by mrintense
Yay, another milestone reached today. I placed my order for the lumber. It's not a complete order but enough to get me started and keep me busy for a couple of months. I'll be able to cut out and build the frames as well as the keel. I'm hoping to acquire the plywood for the stem, breasthook, and knee in a couple of months but first have to get epoxy and fasteners as well some wood for the form.

I was originally going to drive down to Houston and pick it up today, but I have to wait until next Friday to do that (a combination of lead time and the next day I have available to drive down). It's okay though because this makes it much more official as far as I am concerned.

Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:16 am
by Wood Nut

I might be a bit late since you have made your lumber order already. In the past I have called my lumber supplier to find out what range in width and length they had. They would allow me to specify a min width and length for my order of rough lumber and I would have them surface 2 sides and straight line rip one side or me.