Building The Vera Cruise

Designs for inboard or outboard power

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Iggy
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby Iggy » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:09 pm

I applied a simple formula. Take what you need in rough stock (planed in my case) and add 30% wastage.

So whle I calculated 70 bdft to frame my boat hull, motorwell & top deck, I ordered 100 bdft (a little bit over 30% waste).

I placed a 2nd order before I was done for another 30 bdft as I built my own chairs from the same lumber.

I was able to get good usage, and taught myself (with Glen-L forum help) how to make a scarf joint for things like my battens, chine and sheer to ge the length I needed.

A lot of the dimensions on my Malahini framing was in 2" widths (battens, chines, etc), so I found that 5" or 7" boards (bit extra due to blade loss) was the best in terms of width. The frames and dash used some big chunks, but I was able to jig-saw most of the lumber to get good usage.

I didn't sweat about having too much lumber nearby... it was too long a wait to get more if I needed it. Plywood was the big $$ of my wood order, the lumber was only 1/4 of the total wood bill.
Ian (aka Iggy)
My Malahini Build

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mrintense
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Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:07 pm

I'm looking over the plans for the building form. The instructions state that the top of the fore and aft timbers be 43" from the ground. By my estimates, that will put the sheer approximately 6" from the ground. Even under the best of circumstances I cannot see myself squeezing through that small of a gap if I need access to the interior of the boat. I understand that until the skins are on, this isn't really an issue but at some point they will be on.

I have one additional problem that I have to deal with. The back of my garage floor is 3.5 inches higher than the rest of the garage floor. That means that the two legs of the form by the transom will have to be 3.5 inches shorter in order to keep the boat level. So now I'm down to 2.5" inches of clearance at the back end!

My intention during this build is to try and keep all glue joints cleaned as I go. Hopefully this can be accomplished, but it does present a problem when I get the skins on since I will not be able to get under the upside down boat.

Now I've read here several times how people have mentioned how they wished they had built their forms taller. I'm thinking along those lines as well. This brings to mind a few questions.

1.) What would be a suitable amount to raise the forms? I was considering an additional 10 inches. Obviously everything would have to take this into account but 10 is an easy number to add or subtract from measures as long as I remember to. :)

2.) Assuming 10 extra inches, is the building form going to be stable enough? I'm thinking there will be additional flex because of the longer legs and therefore additional bracing will be necessary.

3.) This also means that the breast hook will be 10" higher from the ground. Again, I am concerned about the stability of this as I start adding the chine and sheer.

I realize that these are all basically engineering issues that can be solved with some additional thought. Mainly I am thinking out load here. But I would be interested in hearing any opinions on this. One overriding question, does an extra 10 inches seem too much?
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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mrintense
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:14 pm

Iggy wrote:I applied a simple formula. Take what you need in rough stock (planed in my case) and add 30% wastage.

So whle I calculated 70 bdft to frame my boat hull, motorwell & top deck, I ordered 100 bdft (a little bit over 30% waste).


Iggy, I thought of this approach as well but I was not confident enough with my ability to deal with the rougher wood. In the end I elected to spend more money for the finished lumber. Time will tell if if this was the correct decision. Since it is only a partial order, I can consider the rough wood approach the next time if I feel that the finished wood approach is not working out for me.

I must admit to a bit of trepidation though at spending the extra money. :|
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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belphil
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby belphil » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:51 am

Hi Carl,

Just some thoughts.

There is no real issue to raise the form but I will say that 10" is probably too much. If you raise it too high, the form with the finished hull will be too heavy and it will be more difficult for you to flip the hull over.

Will you be able to move the form+hull in your garage?

The idea is to have also easy access to the bottom of the hull when you add the battens, bottom skins and fiberglass it. If the form is low this will give you access to the inside from the top as you can add the battens after the sides are skinned. The bottom of the hull will be covered by the sole anyway thus not a big deal if the glued joints are not that cleaned.

For stability I would fix each end of the frame to the floor.

Maybe other members have different approach.
Happy sailing

JB
Belphil
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belphil
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby belphil » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:37 am

Rectification
I read back the instructions the hull is not turned with the form but the hull is removed from the legs. Not sure how the hull is fixed to the legs in order to have easy access to the bolts.
Happy sailing

JB
Belphil
UK - Philippines

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jamundsen
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby jamundsen » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:12 am

my form was about 16 inches above the floor. After the frame was completed wheels were added. Since the boat is about 25' long flipping was, for me, a big deal that turned out relatively easy. The extra height didnt seem to affect the flip but sure made it easier to get under the boat.
John Amundsen
Monte Carlo
Lakeland,Fl

Work tends to get in the way of boat building

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mrintense
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Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:20 am

belphil wrote:The idea is to have also easy access to the bottom of the hull when you add the battens, bottom skins and fiberglass it. If the form is low this will give you access to the inside from the top as you can add the battens after the sides are skinned.


jamundsen wrote:The extra height didnt seem to affect the flip but sure made it easier to get under the boat.


I am still mulling this over. I was also concerned about 10 inches being too much. I guess that it has to be a fine line between allowing access underneath but not making the boat so high that I cannot reach to do the work on top. I'm also concerned about being able to move the hull out of the garage when it comes time to flip. The garage door opening is just barely higher than the boat's final height (minus the light post and flying bridge window) Even upside down, if the boat is too high there will be clearance issues with the garage door opening.

So I will have to try and take all of these into account.Of course that means that the old adage of measure twice and cut once will be doubly appropriate in this case. I will probably measure at least a half dozen times before deciding on the final height of the form. One thing I haven't done yet is measure and see just how much I need to slither under the boat
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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mrintense
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Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:55 pm

So I have read what appears to be a consistent theme in gluing, namely don't over clamp. But just what does that mean. It sounds like using spring clamps would be too much. So the alternatives are pipe and slide type clamps. If using these, then is the pressure just enough to hold the parts together, a bit more than that, or maybe even more?

Also, my fastener guide calls out for ring nails when assembling the frame pieces, but most people here seem to prefer screws. Is that the consensus that screws are the fastener of choice for frame construction? It seems since the plan is to use a structural adhesive, that screws would be overkill whereas nails will provide the holding power needed. I'm not against using screws, in fact I was originally thinking that's what I would use, but I'm confused by the instructions recommendations to use the ring nails for this part of the assembly. This also raises the question, how does one go about hammering in nails with out over compressing the parts and without disturbing the alignment?

From that perspective, screws sound like the better choice.

I am going to make sure about this because I am determined not to make mistakes in purchasing by getting in a hurry.

On another note, my lumber order is ready to be picked up so I will be traveling down to Houston on Friday to get that. I've come into an additional bit of money so I have enough to buy another sheet of 3/4" plywood.
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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jamundsen
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby jamundsen » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:08 am

spring clamps are fine for gluing. I have more than I can count.(I cant really count beyond 10 toes and 10 fingers) I tried the nails and went to screws. The nails wont come out and were hard to use.
John Amundsen
Monte Carlo
Lakeland,Fl

Work tends to get in the way of boat building

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mrintense
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Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:17 pm

Well I got my first order of lumber today. Two sheets of plywood and nine mahogany boards. I have a few things to get setup and then I plan on starting to cut out the frames. It might be a few weeks before I can actually assemble them but I can get everything cut out and ready to go. Finally, starting to build instead of talking about it !!!

I had to go down to Houston to pick them up (a three hour drive one way). I had to stuff the mahogany inside the SUV . It reached all the way up to the dash of the truck, so I had a view of it all the way home. Call me crazy, but I was talking to the wood, telling it how I was going to give it a second lease on life as part of my boat ! :D
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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jprice
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby jprice » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:32 pm

As far as the form height is concerned, I'd recommend to make it as high as you can while still being able to reach the keel. Make the form legs a little long, and clamp the stringers on there, then lay a frame on top, and adjust the height accordingly.
I've seen some pictures of boats being built where the sheer clamps end up only a few inches off the ground. Honestly, I think that's crazy. You really want to be able to get under there when you're planking. I can only imagine the mess of epoxy ooze and drips I'd have if I didn't get under there and clean it up before it cured.

Nails vs. screws. For me screws won hands down. Nails vs. white oak was a battle I wasn't going to win. Plus I feel that screws give better holding power.

...and no, you're not crazy. I talk to myself all the time in the shop. I'm pretty sure I'm talking to the boat, but never listened that closely to myself, so who knows. :shock: :lol:

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby Bill Edmundson » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:52 pm

You will need to get under the boat. Give yourself room.

I use a combination of screws and ring nails. You need to pre-drill both nails and screws. This is particularly true with white oak. I use screws to pull the ply to shape then use nails for intermediate fastening. If you doubt ring nails, just try to pull one.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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mrintense
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Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:36 pm

I'm laying out the bottom piece of frame one and I have a concern about the end of the frame. The instructions state that frames are molded to a minimum 3 inches. I take this to mean that the inside edge should be at least 3inches from the outside edge. My patterns provide only the outside contour of the frame pieces.

The plans also specifically state that the inside edge (which is the top edge on this piece) is used for leveling purposes and must be accurate. They give a dimension of 5 5/16 inches at the center of the frame. The full scale patterns have a line to indicate this. This line is long enough that I can lay a straightedge along it and extend the line to the ends of the frame.

Now assuming that this piece needs to be level on the top edge over the entire length of the part, extending the line as I mentioned, accomplishes this. However, when the line crosses the end of the frame , the thickness is less than 3 inches. It's approximately 2.75 inches. This are also receives the chine. Adding that cutout to the drawing shows that the inside edge of the cutout gets pretty close to the top edge of the frame. There's approximately 3/8" material between the top edge and the cutout.

Looking at the section drawings on the plans, they also show this closeness between the cutout and the top of the frame piece. This entire area is sandwiched between two gussets as is the side frame member. The gussets will have plenty of extra material and I can add in a filler piece between the gussets as well.

The photo, although not well focused, shows what I am talking about.

So I am wondering, is the height of the bottom frame piece more important than the 3" width at the ends of the frame pieces (assuming that the gussets will add strength to this area)?

My gut feeling is that this is a correct assumption and that the gussets will provide the needed extra strength.

Frame two's bottom piece suffers from this same problem, even worse. Again, the section view in the plans do show this, however.
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photo (2).jpg
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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mrintense
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Building The Vera Cruise

Postby mrintense » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:27 pm

Well I guess an update is in order. I completed cutting out a few pieces from one board. They've been sanded to shape as well. I was mostly interested in fine tuning my process for cutting out and shaping parts so I only used one board for this trial. Not much to look at yet but I learned a few things in the process. I've outlined these in my blog, but the most important thing I learned was that I need to put in better lighting in my garage.

So today I bought two new fluorescent fixtures and I will be installing them in the next day or two. I have to remove an old ceiling light and replace it with a two gang plug receptacle. Once that's done, then I'll hang the two light fixtures. Then back to work on the boat.

Here is the only significant picture I have at this point. The larger piece is the bottom of frame 1 and the smaller one is a side piece from frame 5. There were actually 2 pieces from frame 5 but one was cut too close to the line and rendered unusable (hence the need for more lighting).

Looking forward to getting some more parts made and starting initial assembly.
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firstparts.jpg
Carl
a.k.a. Clipper

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise named "Some Other Time"

Clipper's Vera Cruise Build

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belphil
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Re: Building The Vera Cruise

Postby belphil » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:45 am

That's a good start Carl and for sure a learning curve.
I follow your progress with great interest and hope all will go well.

What tools are you using for the project?

Good luck and enjoy

JB
Happy sailing

JB
Belphil
UK - Philippines


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