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Overniter in SC: Flipped 5-27-17

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:30 am
by Adrock1
Well after much debate I've settled on the Overniter. Some of you may remember my other post looking g for advice on which design to build. I was debating either a Zip or SkiTow but ultimately settled on the Overniter. I have the plans in hand and just bought up about 35 bdft of sapele to get myself started.

I'll try my best to keep this thread up to date on my progress. I've already got tons of info from all the other build treads and I'm looking forward to giving back as well as the advice of all you other builders as I go. Wish me luck.

That said here is my first question. I'm about to start on the frames. I've been reading the glen-l book on plywood boat building and just completed the chapter on frame construction. Lots of options there. I'm trying to decide on approach.

My plan at this point is to do half lap joints and then cover with plywood gussets on each side of each joint. This is a simple joint for me as an experienced woodworker, should offer great strength, and the joinery will help keep the components aligned for gluing.

Has anyone else taken this approach? Is it a waste of time as opposed to simply butting the frame members and covering the joints with gussets?

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:41 am
by gdcarpenter
I used half laps joints on my frames. I believe they are so strong that I did not add gussets. If you are going to use gussets then I believe there's really no need to do the extra work involved in half lap joints. I wanted a 'cleaner' look for the joints.

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:12 pm
by tcough
I can't say if the joints/gusset arrangement will be any stronger or weaker but make sure you adjust your frame spacing to accommodate your modification(s). Great to see another build beginning and good luck. Please don't hesitate to ask questions either.

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:48 pm
by tcough
Was thinking about this a little more and you'll need to pay attention to the amount of frame material you'll have left when screwing the chine to the frames. With a lap-joint, you'll have half the material in an end grain orientation, which isn't very good for holding screws. It's possible that the epoxy will be sufficient to hold it together, but you'll need to have very clean joints.

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:40 am
by Adrock1
Tcough I thought about that too but looking at the plans the bottom member of each frame actually extends out all the way to the chines so if I did a butt joint covered by gussets on each side as illustrated on the plans I would be screwing into end grain anyway.

Also in regards to your point about frame spacing does it really make a difference? The frames won't end up any thicker or thinner with them half lapped with hussets as opposed to butt joined with gussets. Or am I misunderstanding?

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:19 am
by bob smith
My opinion is that either method is fine in that the strength of epoxy joints properly done far exceeds what is required for that joint. The screw(s) simply hold position during curing.
As you work with epoxy you will gain respect for it's strength and superiority as a building tool.
To assure yourself, make up some test pieces and see which is strongest. At the very least it will be good practice. Remember not to over clamp the joint and squeeze out the epoxy.

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:34 am
by mrintense
Accidentally deleted my post :(

Anyway, as an alternative to plain gussets, you can dress them up either via painting them or adding some sort of veneer. Here is an example of the "gussied up" gussets I will have in the berthing area of my boat. The gussets are regular marine plywood attached normally. I then added a thin mahogany veneer with inlays I purchased from Chesapeake Light Craft, The ends are capped with mahogany.
This is the forward most frame
This is the forward most frame
The gusset is plywood with a thin mahoany veneer
The gusset is plywood with a thin mahoany veneer
The inlay is a laser cut inlay I bought from Chesapeake Light Boats
The inlay is a laser cut inlay I bought from Chesapeake Light Boats

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:02 am
by Adrock1
Looks really great Carl!

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:48 am
by tcough
I don't recall seeing this in Carl's build blog, but love it!

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:56 pm
by Adrock1
Alright guys. Another question regarding the frames. The frame edges apparently need to be beveled. The specs are provided in the plans and I think I understand the way it works ( positive vs negative bevel). After reading the section on frames in the book I don't remember it addressing this though. When I got to the chapter on fairing however it mentions making this bevel on the frames as part of the fairing process.

My question is how did some of you other builders address this? Did you bevel the edges of the frames per the specs before setting up the frames? Did you leave them square edged and apply the bevels as part of the fairing process? If the latter do you need to leave the frames with positive bevel over sized accordingly in order to leave material to fair away or just cut the frames to the pattern?

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:20 pm
by tcough
I didn't have the positive/negative issue to deal with on my Flats build. I built all the frames per the full size pattern and then faired them on the form after the sheer/chine/keel etc. were all set, glued and screwed. I faired the frames and everything else initially using a power planer, rasp, belt sander and hand chisels. The process went pretty quickly for me, was able to get all the fairing done in about a day.

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:01 pm
by gdcarpenter
My 2 cents

Premise:

No two builds of the same boat are identical.
Theory and Reality are all to often not one and the same.

Logic:

You are going to have to fair the boat in any event, so why not leave the bevel to the fairing.

That being said, I built my entire transom, motor/splash well as a unit before mounting the assembly onto my building jig. So it can be done, but there are some risks if things do not go as planned.

I am a fan of the expression "Make Plans and God Laughs"

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:51 am
by Adrock1
Gdcarpenter, that's a good point. About just doing the bevels when I fair it. I think what I may do though is just bevel the forward frame ahead of time and save the rest till I fair the hull. Frame 5 if I'm.not mistaken is the only one that has a significant bevel anyway. The others are only a few degrees off sqaure. The should be easy to fair.

I'm curious though as I think through the subsequent steps why the bevels on the frames are even needed. My understanding is that the planking doesn't get nailed or screwed to the framing. It only gets nailed/screwed to the longitudinals (sheer, chine, battens). So if it the planking doesn't attach to the frames why fair it for a nice fit?

Or am I mistaken on this as well? The boat buildig book definetly says no nails or screws im sure. It doesn't state whether you glue them though. Does the planking get glued to the frames? Just no nails or screws?

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:57 am
by Bill Edmundson
I glue to the frames. I want a good fit so I can get a seal to keep water out. You will never get another chance to get in there.

Bill

Re: Overniter in SC

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:00 am
by Adrock1
Bill Edmundson wrote:I glue to the frames. I want a good fit so I can get a seal to keep water out. You will never get another chance to get in there.

Bill
I'm surprised by that Bill. I always heard you don't attach the planking in a plywood boat to the frames. The book seemed to pretty clearly confirm that. I just assumed that meant no glue either. So nailing or screwing to the frames is bad and causes a hard spot or stress points but gluing is okay?

I'm curious what the other builders have done. Is that the standard practice? To glue but not nail the planking to the frames?