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GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:09 am
by bobinpowayca
Howdy, well things were going great until I screwed up this morning :(
I'm currently building the floor of the cockpit. I've done the floor between frame #5 and the stem, between frames #4 and #5, and between the transom and frame #1. It's 3/8 ply screwed and glued with 2 pound foam underneath. Right now I'm doing the floor on the port side between frames #1 and #4. Here I'm using 4 pound foam - the floor is only 3/8 ply and with the foam it's solid as a rock. What I've been doing is the "pour in place"; I put a hole in the deepest part of the cavity to pour the foam into, and another hole in the shallowest part for the foam to escape thus filling the void.
So there were three cavities on the port side, as the picture shows the first two came out perfect - the first pours were a little shy of filling the whole cavity and I added a little, but on the third pour (between frames 3 and 4) my first pour was a little too much.
Here's the problem - in the forward section, the plywood where it meets the hull is only glued to the hull inside - I didn't think I needed cleats. I didn't think with the exit hole there would be any pressure under the ply as the foam expanded. But what happened was that as it started expanding and coming out the other hole, I heard the sound of creaking and snapping wood - I guess the foam coming out the exit was setting up and caused the floor to rise and bust the glue joint between it and the hull side.
Well, the hull is okay - but now, if you can see in the picture, I have a big "bubble " in that part of the deck. I think I will leave it as is - I'm ordering back to back seats and I think the best solution will be to mark where the base will be mounted and cut level lines into the deck to mount it. It's just heartbreaking to see a big bulge in my nice deck but the seat should mostly hide it.
So a lesson learned on pouring foam - probably best to do small amount at a time.
I have a question - so now where I had a nice contoured joint between the floor and hull side, the ply has popped up, leaving a gap between the floor and the side about 1" deep by 1" wide. Do you think I can just fill that much volume with QuikFair? I know it may crack but like I said it won't be too noticeable.
Matt, did you decide on how hight to drill your holes in the frames for the steeering and motor controls? I'll be doing a removable center floor but I don't think it will be 3/8 ply. Bob

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:08 am
by Bill Edmundson
Bob

The power of this foam is surprising. They just used it to try to level my driveway. One psi is 144 pounds per sq. ft. Quarter inch steel plate weighs 10 pounds per sq. ft.

Bill

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:43 am
by ToddM
Bill Edmundson wrote:Bob

The power of this foam is surprising. They just used it to try to level my driveway. One psi is 144 pounds per sq. ft. Quarter inch steel plate weighs 10 pounds per sq. ft.

Bill


When the approach to a bridge has sunken too much, we, (Caltrans), drill holes in the material underneath and inject expanding foam to lift the highway.

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:03 pm
by bobinpowayca
Well, I guess I'm lucky it didn't crack the hull! I had glue only on that joint, and I didn't even sand off all the paint where it met the hull because I thoutht there'd be no pressure on the ply with the exit hole. Plus the foam got hot. I think the 4lb foam exerts a lot more pressure than the 2lb foam when it expands, altho it only expands about half as much. It's definitely way harder when it cures. bob

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:42 pm
by PeterG
Hmm... I know for me with my boat that would bother me to no end... Knowing that was there, and seeing it every time even though no one else does... My fix would be to remove that top ply panel, carve the foam to the right level and glue the panel back in... You have done so much great work building your boat, why live with this? Leaving it may cause a lot more aggravation later compared to fixing it now. Just my $0.02 worth. This really is great work you've done so far!

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:00 pm
by Bill Edmundson
Bob

Removing that panel is no small thing. That baby is really glued down now. That is why I rarely use the expanding foam.

Bill

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:39 pm
by bobinpowayca
PeterG, yep, you're right, it bothers me. It would take a long time and be really messy to fix properly. But I'm kind of at the point now after five years of building a 16' boat that I want to get it done. We're over 70 now and I've been telling my wife that someday, we'll take lots of trips with the boat and stay in nice lodges as soon as I finish the boat. :) We haven't had a vacation in a long time.
Hopefully when I get the seat, I'll be able to cut down into the buckled section of the plank and level out the foam to accept the seat base. This 4lb stuff is really hard when it cures, I think it'll make a sturdy base for the seat. Then I'll keep a spare life vest tucked between the seat and the hull side to cover the big ugly bulge. That's kind of how I installed the hatch on the foredeck - the hatch frame was flat, the deck arched.
By the way, if anyone has a suggestion for a boating destination I'd like to hear it. I'm thinking of a great river with marinas to stay at. Or a big lake (like Superior :D ) Maybe that's a topic for another section in this forum? Bob

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:54 am
by Jimbob
Hi Bob,
Sorry to hear about your problem. Seems like when building a boat there is always something to fix. Here are some ideas you might consider if you decide to fix the floor. You might consider cutting out the buckled portion with a router. I did just that in fixing a screw up after my planking was glued down. I set the router bit to just cut down to the battens but not into them. You could also use the router to flatten the bulge. Some people have used a router like a planer to flatten. You just need straight runners for the router to glide on. After the patch is made, you might consider a vinyl flooring like I am using in my boat (got it from classic boat connection). It is a mat that is removable, lays down nice, and doesn't move around.
Pics below.
Jim

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:03 am
by JimmY
+1 on the router idea.

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:18 am
by ToddM
JimmY wrote:+1 on the router idea.


And maybe you can turn it into some kind of design idea? Sometimes when I am planing a board, the grain changes and I get tear out. If I don't care to start with a new board, I fill the void with ground turquoise and CA glue. It changes a "Oops", into a, "Eww-Ahh."

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:49 am
by bobinpowayca
Hey thanks a lot Jimbob. I like the vinyl floormat - I was thinking of Interlux Interdeck, the paint with sand in it but I like the idea of smooth deck with a mat better. For one thing it would be a job to sand down a non-skid deck and would be hard to clean I think.
That's a good idea with the router. Of course the plank is glued down to the frames and battens with epoxy and bronze screws so I will probably just cut out a section the exact size of the seat base. However, I may do the job with my sanding boards. They will cut thru the 3/8 ply and the foam easily so I should be able to level this big zit.
I try to avoid the router. Last April I was using a small router to rout a flat section of the foredeck for the hatch base while standing on a scaffold next to it when something slipped and I basically stuck my left thumb into the router :lol: No it wasn't funny, the end of my thumb was shredded to the bone and my first thought was now I'm never going to finish this boat!! Fortunately I didn't lose my thumb, nine stitches and a month to heal. That was my little Bosch router - I fear it now and prefer to use my big old Black and Decker clunker.
So I have this trench now where the plank lifted from the hull side about 1" x 1", don't know if you can see it in the picture but I'm thinking of filling it with Quik-Fair. Anyone filled a gap this big with quikfair?
Thanks, Bob

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:11 am
by Jimbob
Re: filling the gap. I have become quite good at filling gaps by cutting a scrap piece of mahogany to fit. I make my patterns out of heavy paper to follow the curve of the boat, and then cut the piece on the bandsaw. I then epoxy in place with glen-l's poxygrip glue. I have filled large holes on other things with some stuff called fixitall. Don't know if it is appropriate for a boat, but it sets up like epoxy, even though it is water based. It can be sanded and shaped.
Jim

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:16 pm
by bobinpowayca
PeterG you're right I couldn't live with that big ugly bulge after I did the starboard side floor, that came out really nice and if Jimbob could repair his hull I should fix the floor. I cut it out close as I could to the joints and had to use a 2' crowbar to pry it off. Drilled out the screws then routed out the perimeter. Now I'm shaving out the old foam with my multipurpose tool and chisel blades. Lots of work but I can sleep at night now. I think I just didn't want to use my router after I stuck my thumb in it last April :lol: Bob

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:11 pm
by PeterG
Sounds great, and the starboard side looks great. I can see why you would want to redo the port side. I am always reluctant to suggest to others that they should undo or redo something on their projects. I would rather encourage others that they can correct something that they're not happy with it. I think you will be happier after it's done. And we all got to learn from your adventures.

Re: GERONIMO floor foul up

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:26 am
by bobinpowayca
I think my lesson learned was to mix and add the foam in portions, e.g. a pint at a time instead of two quarts, then peek into the exit hole to see how it's filling. I wasn't going to foam the sides because of the time involved but I'm glad I did, the floor is rock solid. When I pried off the plywood there were no voids at all, so that was reassuring. Bob