Waterproof wood glue

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footer
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Waterproof wood glue

Post by footer » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:16 am

Does anyone ever use Franklin Brand Waterproof Wood glue for building a boat, or is that a bad idea?

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JoeM
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by JoeM » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:33 pm

footer wrote:Does anyone ever use Franklin Brand Waterproof Wood glue for building a boat, or is that a bad idea?
Titebond? Not the best idea for below the water line. Also, your joinery needs to be spot on as it's not a gap filling glue.

There are applications where using it during a boat build shouldn't be an issue, but I personally plan on using epoxy of some kind for my build.
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TomB
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by TomB » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:34 pm

Hi Tom,

Welcome. It is nice to see another MI builder. I used Franklin III on a laminated bent wood mahogany chair. It has been outside, not in the rain, for several years without a problem. I would not use it on a boat for anything important. It was easy to starve the glue joint and III has a relatively short open time before it cured which caused problems for complicated glue ups. Stick with epoxy.

Tom

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watkibe
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by watkibe » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:57 pm

Resorcinol is the old school standard. It is a brown powder that you mix with water. It is quite thin, and won't fill any gaps. It requires good clamping pressure. I built most of a boat with it and I never had any problems with it. Glen refers to it, I don't know if they sell it.
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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by Bill Edmundson » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:09 am

I used epoxy on the frames and hull. But, I used a lot of Loctite Construction Adhesive on the decks and cabin. It is waterproof actually needs a little moisture to cure out fully. I believe Ray Mackey did also. I glue and screw every thing.

Bill
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by Shaunh » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:13 pm

We use a lot of structural Polyurethane ( PU ) in our workshop. Good on difficult timbers like Brush Box and Spotted Gum and they build beams and bridges out of it so has good external properties. It's a D4.
here's a link. I hope it inserted correctly.
[urlhttps://www.jowat.com/en-AU/adhesives/reactive- ... k-systems/][/url]

We also use Soudal. They do a Poly glue too. When i start my Squirt i will use the Poly for all the frames and bits and bobs but epoxy for applying the plywood and anything where i need a good amount of work time and gap filling. Don't use Poly on a wet day unless it's a quick glue up. As a moisture cure it will go off heaps faster with higher humidity. We have had a couple of glue ups go pear shaped because of high RH.
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footer
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by footer » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:31 am

Thank you for the info. I think I'll stick to the epoxy since i bought the kit. Don't really want anything to fail. I have a friend who built a small plywood dingy with waterproof wood glue and epoxy painted it and it lasted for several years, that's why I asked. But this is a little bit bigger of a job than that and I will submit to your knowledge and experience. :)
Thanks again
Tom

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Locutus
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by Locutus » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:43 pm

Epoxy is not the be-all-end-all either. I've read that it can weaken in hot climates. You should be okay with it in MI though. Some time ago I posted a rather lengthy discussion on epoxy vs. resorcinol:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26929

footer
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by footer » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:16 am

Thanks Mark. Very good article. Is Titebond III resorcinol or made with it? I build cedar chests and use titebond III as my go to glue. I like the way it's thicker properties (not that it's going to be exposed to water). I also build outdoor airplane windmills which are exposed. So I just buy one glue to fit all.

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Locutus
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by Locutus » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:27 pm

Footer,
I don't know a lot about Titebond III except that it's water based, so I would think that the bonded surfaces would have to breathe enough for the glue to dry out in order to get a good bond. (Water-impervious surfaces probably wouldn't bond well for this reason, I'm thinking.) That would be true of resorcinol as well. Epoxy on the other hand cures rather than dries, so in theory it would be better suited than Titebond for bonding non-porous surfaces like metal, closed-cell foam and certain types of plastics.

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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by gdcarpenter » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:16 pm

Back in 207 Fine Woodworking did a test on glues, great read if you can find a link.

The glues they tested:

"Selecting glues, woods, and gaps
To see whether an open-grained wood bonds differently from a tight-grained one, we chose white oak and hard maple. dense tropical woods have a reputation as being difficult to glue. we intended to use teak, but the lumberyard owner suggested ipé, as he had heard many complaints about glue failure with this wood.
We chose a traditional interior polyvinyl acetate (PVA) yellow glue represented by Elmer’s carpenter’s glue; a newer PVA glue with a Type I waterproof rating in the form of Titebond III; two types of hide glue, a room-temperature version by old Brown Glue and traditional granules that must be mixed with water and heated; a two-part, slow-set epoxy from System Three; and Gorilla Glue’s polyurethane.
If a joint is sloppy, will the glue fill the gaps? Conversely, if the joint is so tight it has to be hammered home, will it be starved of glue? does a perfectly fitting joint produce the strongest glue bond? To answer these questions, we tested bridle joints with three types of fit: tight, snug, and loose."

The joints they used were both tight and loose fitting bridle joints.

Bridle joints: First make ’em, then break ’em
we settled on a bridle joint, also known as an open mortise-and- tenon joint, because it has no mechanical strength and instead relies entirely on the glue bond. It also was easy to adjust the width of the tenon to change the fit of the joint to test each glue’s gap-filling ability.

Some of the testing:

"Off to the lab—we shipped the joints to the department of
Materials Science and Engineering at Case western reserve University in Cleveland, ohio. Under the direction of associ- ate professor david Matthiesen, the samples were placed in an Instron testing machine. The force it took to break each joint was recorded on a computer, and then the values for the three joints were averaged and a standard deviation calculated. See what we learned."

Some of the results and conclusions:

"Epoxy isn’t necessary on a dense tropical wood. The strongest joint in the whole test was yellow glue on ipé—a real surprise. Indeed, both yellow glue and Type I PVA were stronger than epoxy in tight and snug ipé joints. On loose ipé joints, epoxy showed no great advantage, so I would stick with either interior PVA or Type I PVA on this tropical wood. At
all costs, don’t hope that polyurethane will fill a loose ipé joint—it won’t."
This is my first, last and only boat build.

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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by Adrock1 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:55 am

No doubt there are glues other than epoxy that will work for at least some of the boat building process. Some may actually be marginally superior to epoxy. But at least for the type of construction we use in our boats it's seems almost a certainty that you will use epoxy for some application. Fiberglassing for example.

Given that epoxy will be a major component of at least some elements of the construction process it makes sense to just use epoxy for everything.

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by Bill Edmundson » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:47 am

Am important component of this is flex. Our boats are built to have very stiff hulls. In restoring old boats it is recommended not to fiberglass the hull. The old hulls were flexible. If you glass over a flexible hull with ridged product it won't last long. The old hulls also need moisture or the wood will shrink away from the glass.

Bill
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Scot2640
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Re: Waterproof wood glue

Post by Scot2640 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:05 am

I know this thread is a bit old but I just wanted to add to it because I found my self doing a lot of research on adhesives for our big build.

There is a modern version of Resorcinol called Aerodux 185, easily found with a google search. This is not your grand-fathers resorcinol. It cures down to 50 degrees, can be moderately thickened and only requires moderate clamping pressure. It's two part system with liquid resin and powdered hardener that you mix by weight (I used an old postal scale). Depending on working temperature it has a couple hour pot life and great open work time. You'll hear horror stories of working with this type of glue, but those are references to the old type. I had never even heard of the stuff until I started this project so I was a complete rookie and found it easy to work with. If you absolutely, positively need a glue joint that won't fail and is super strong, impervious to water and chemicals this is the glue to use. Expensive at $120 a gallon but well worth the 7 gallons we used for our keel.

Now there is another glue that should not be confused with resorcinol and that's plastic resin glue. Plastic resin is still made by Dap as Weldwood. This is a powdered glue that you mix by weight or volume with water. It's very waterproof but not as much as Titebond III. It's about as strong as other wood, PVA style glues but has a much longer open time. However it is fussy about working temperature and not a good option unless you can maintain 70 degrees F. I can't think of a reason to use this type of adhesive other than cost (inexpensive) and open time. It's much easier to use a bottle of premixed (read no chance to mess it up) Titebond III and worth the price for convenience and peace of mind, at least to me. However if I had an extremely complicated glue up for a woodworking project I would definitely consider it. I have used it a couple times and it works fine and I was pleased with the results but just not worth the effort with the availability of Titebond III.

I talked with an engineer over at Titebond III for a particular application I had a question about. They were great to deal with and spent around 20 minutes on the phone answering all my questions. This is an amazing engineering accomplishment when you understand it fully. It's very strong (not as strong as epoxy or resorcinol) but your wood will fail before the glue does. It's extremely water resistant in my experience (which I can vouch for as a cutting board I made with the stuff has been put through the dishwasher several times by my forgetful bride) and in reality. The only reason they don't call it water proof is, as it was phrased to me by the engineer, "we are not going to guarantee someones life in open water based on an $8 bottle of glue". It will cure to full strength down to 40 degrees F, which I have tested unintentionally. Suffice to say that I agree with the other posters that I wouldn't build my whole boat with it, although I know it's been done, but you can have a high degree of confidence in a wet environment like a boat. The other often unstated benefit is it's flexibility and resistance to shock loads, Like when your frame gussets are banging against the rocks or dock. I'll be using it extensively above the water line and for various curved (above the waterline) lamination's. It was also the glue we used to build our bent wood trusses for our 45' x 20' boat shed and has held up great in hurricane force winds.

Epoxy has been talked about extensively in this forum so I don't have much to add on that. Epoxy truly is a miracle adhesive but it's not perfect. Heat and UV are it's weaknesses. Depending on manufacturer it begins to lose strength when heated to around 120 degrees F. Additionally, depending on manufacture again, it will cure down to around 45 degrees (depending on hardener choice) Considering a dark colored surface on a boat can reach temperatures of around 165 degrees F in strong, direct sunlight. It would be wise to keep that in mind when using epoxy for things exposed to that kind of heat, particularly if they are bent lamination's under constant stress. However it is often the best blend of cost, water resistance and strength to be found.
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