Riviera/Monaco/Tahoe full season in salt/brackish water?

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nybhh
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Riviera/Monaco/Tahoe full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by nybhh »

Hi guys,
I recently discovered this site and these forums and I've read through several of the Monaco/Riviera threads. All I can say is wow, you all are amazing craftsmen and these boats you guys are building are absolutely stunning! These are seriously some of the sexiest things I have ever laid internet eyes on and that is saying a lot, lol. I have a couple of general questions I was hoping someone could answer or at least point me in the right direction.

I've noticed that most of you guys trailer these beauties and they don't spend much time in the water. From what I've read, the cold-molded process is vastly superior to the older way that wood hulls were constructed but I'm curious if they are suitable to spend an entire season in the water in an uncovered slip at the marina? I'm assuming one would have a custom cover built to protect the deck and cabin but what about the hull? Also, are these fresh water only or can these hulls hold up to salt/brackish water?

We split time between the mid-Hudson Valley and NYC and the boat would be built in my shop upstate and overwinter in our barn but spend summers at a marina either in the Hudson or East River around NYC. The idea of hopping in the boat to cruise upstate for the weekend sounds so much more appealing than fighting traffic to get out of town every Friday!

Lastly, I understand these are designed primarily as lake boats but how would the hull designs of the Riviera/Monaco handle typical waves/currents in a River like the Hudson and the tidal estuaries of the East River? Is a playground area like the Long Island Sound completely out of the question? My wife and I are taking sailing lessons in the Long Island Sound next spring and may keep a sailboat out there at some point so being able to use a runabout to make the 30-mile trip out to that marina from the city has a certain appeal as well. Sometimes the wakes from other marine traffic, ferries, etc. can be pretty substantial around NYC. Is there a particular design I should look at that would be better suited for these waters? Although I have some wood working experience and am a non-naval architect, a custom design is probably biting off more than I can chew and the Riviera/Monaco look is definitely what appeals to me.

When I found this site, I was getting ready to purchase a Mill Creek 16.5 Hybrid (cedar-strip deck) kit and may go ahead and tackle that first this winter as a little boat-building intro before diving in but this site has definitely got my juices flowing.

Thanks!
Last edited by nybhh on Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
-Brandon

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by Bill Edmundson »

nybhh

I use my Tahoe @ 20'-6" in salt/brackish most of the time. The Tahoes' have a slight Vee bottom at the transom. That helps in a chop. The Tahoe 23 can take a lot more water than the 19. The 19 does not have a lot of freeboard aft. I would definitely glass the entire hull. If you look at my pictures below, you will see you can get the look you want under glass. Once you glass the hull for long times in the water, you'll need a good cover, good bottom paint, good batteries, and good bilge pumps.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

nybhh
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by nybhh »

Thanks Bill. I'll take a closer look at the Tahoe as an alternative. I need to measure my shop to see if I could pull off a 23'. The barn is 40' long so no problems there but the lighting isn't great so I wouldn't want to do the building there although I guess I could build a mobile trailer/work stand to move it around with the tractor while under construction.

I've also noticed most of these boats use Mahogany for the structure. I have a Woodmizer saw mill and plentiful access to white oak saw logs and could save a ton of money (and enjoy the process) by milling and drying my own structural pieces out of white oak? Does anyone see any issues with that? I'd still use mahogany for all the exterior/visible elements and know white oak is an acceptable wood species for boat building although not as attractive as mahogany.

Wow, your boat looks really amazing also! I'll go through all your posts and photos tonight tonight after work. Most of my reading so far has been results of Riviera/Monaco forum search so I hadn't come across your build yet but I'll add the Tahoe to the mix. Looks like it is probably a better option for these coastal areas. By the way, my parents have a place on the Coosa River in Ohatchee, Al. They just bought it recently and I haven't been down yet but will get down there over the holidays.
-Brandon

Hercdrvr
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by Hercdrvr »

Your plan sounds perfect!
Step 1: order plans and accompanying “how to books” from Glen L
Step:2 read books
Etc.....
Step 998: check drain plug installed.
Step: 999: drive boat up Hudson River and swell with accomplishment like you’ve never felt before.
999 is being optimistic, more like step 1500, so if you do 2 steps a day you’ll be finished in two years.
Matt B

TomB
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by TomB »

I am using flat sawn white oak frames for my Tahoe 23 without issue. Quarter sawn might be better. Air dried would be best...if it is dry. Tom
In the home stretch on a Tahoe 23

nybhh
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by nybhh »

TomB wrote:I am using flat sawn white oak frames for my Tahoe 23 without issue. Quarter sawn might be better. Air dried would be best...if it is dry. Tom
Thanks Tom. It would require larger logs but no reason I couldn't quarter saw at least most of it. I haven't actually checked with our local hardwood yard yet but I suspect white oak is the only appropriate species I'll be able to find locally. I don't have a kiln so I will generally mill hardwoods in the spring, air dry in a covered shed or barn through the summer and then bring it into a heated shop for a few months in the winter to finish up. I haven't really done much with white oak and do know it does take forever to dry and needs to dry slowly.

Does anyone happen to have a general idea about how many BF of lumber goes into a typical frame of a Tahoe 23? Actually the whole boat if someone has it, lol? Once I have a plan chosen, I'll plug the material list into a spreadsheet and calculate everything to even see if it is worth it to mill it myself and deal with drying. Why not add another year to the process?

Wow, I just noticed I'm writing this as if I am actually going to do it rather than just think about it.
-Brandon

PeterG
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by PeterG »

Welcome and good luck with your new hobby! This forum is the best support system you can get and don't hesitate to ask questions. The Glen-L site has many, many resources like the boat plans catalog, newsletters, books, etc. to explore. For instance, here is a link to the bill of materials for the Tahoe 23 from the boat plans catalog. It will give you a good idea of what you'll be looking at for building the hull.
http://glen-l.com/designs/hankinson/tahoe23-bom.html
Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
Griffin's Law: Murphy was an optimist.

nybhh
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by nybhh »

Wow, Thanks Peter, that is exactly what I was curious about.

That table list 125 BF for the framing. To put that in "log" perspective, 1 18" dia x 10' log will generate somewhere between about 122 and 145 BF of lumber. I haven't priced white oak but I suspect that 1 log, if I don't harvest it off my property and buy it from local loggers or hardwood yard will probably run somewhere between $100-200 and would take no more than a couple of hours to mill (nominal-rough) if I'm being super selective and working directly off a cut list.
-Brandon

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DrBryanJ
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by DrBryanJ »

Welcome nybhh:

The Tahoe is a beautiful boat and Bill's is a fine example. Like Peter said, the bill of materials is available for all the boat plans. I'm about 35 minutes from the NYC. I buy most of my hardwood from Boards and Beams in Fairfield NJ http://www.woodboardsandbeams.com/. They have many species available. (I've used mostly sapele mahogany) They don't usually have the more traditional mahoganies. For those I go out to PA https://starkemillwork.com/. It is another hour + from me, so probably at least 2 hrs from NYC. I don't have any local suppliers of meranti or okoume plywood. that I had to order from a supplier near Boston
Bryan

Building a malahini "Mona Lisa"

My wife said "If I build a boat, she's getting a divorce."
We're still happily married, but now she just wants "the dam boat out of the garage."

TomB
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by TomB »

I had close to 200 BF when I started. I sorted for yield, and quality, and probably used 40-60 BF for frames and the stem. There would be a lot more waste without the extra lumber to select from. If it is a one time purchase, follow the material list. Tom
In the home stretch on a Tahoe 23

nybhh
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by nybhh »

DrBryanJ wrote:Welcome nybhh:

The Tahoe is a beautiful boat and Bill's is a fine example. Like Peter said, the bill of materials is available for all the boat plans. I'm about 35 minutes from the NYC. I buy most of my hardwood from Boards and Beams in Fairfield NJ http://www.woodboardsandbeams.com/. They have many species available. (I've used mostly sapele mahogany) They don't usually have the more traditional mahoganies. For those I go out to PA https://starkemillwork.com/. It is another hour + from me, so probably at least 2 hrs from NYC. I don't have any local suppliers of meranti or okoume plywood. that I had to order from a supplier near Boston
Thank you for the resources Dr. Bryan. Those are good places to know. There are a couple of good hardwood sources in the city I've used for millwork but I haven't checked out their inventory with an eye towards these particular species. The NJ and PA resources are probably worth the drive if purchasing in large enough quantities. It's obvious I have plenty of research to do this winter and quite a few honey-do's I need to wrap up if I'm going to get serious about this. Not having access to the shop on weeknights is going to be a major setback I can tell already, maybe even a deal breaker unless I can get comfortable thinking in years instead of months. I've spent about 5 years renovating the upstate house but the majority of it was in years 1&2 and the rest has really been more a bunch of smaller projects lumped under the "house".
-Brandon

hoodman
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by hoodman »

Not many boat builders go from log to boat all themselves. That would be pretty cool. Quarter sawn white oak is really nice to work with. All my frames and longitudinals are made with it.
Matt

Building a Geronimo......!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25139

nybhh
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by nybhh »

Thanks Matt, and beautiful frames they are! Ha, another 71 page thread to read! A solid endorsement for quarter sawn oak for sure. Assuming I spend the next 9 months reading threads and doing research, a 5-year build would allow me to gift this to myself for my 50th birthday.

THAT would be cool. 5 years sounds doable no?
-Brandon

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sscobra
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by sscobra »

nybhh, it would be very cool to watch your build, particularly if you mill your own lumber. White oak is perfect for building the frames. It is a very strong wood and has been used for years to build boats. I personally used mahogany because I liked the look. There is no reason that the Monaco or Riviera shouldn't hold up in brackish water. Others on here use theirs in salt water, but I don't know of any that keep it in the water for an entire season. With the right bottom paint and a good cover, it should be fine. My Monaco could comfortably carry 5 adults so if you need more room than that, consider the Riviera or the Tahoe. Best of luck on your build. Skip
Built the Glen-L Monaco, 2016.

nybhh
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Re: Riviera/Monaco full season in salt/brackish water?

Post by nybhh »

Thank you Skip. If I decide to go for it, I will most likely use quarter-sawn white oak and might even harvest the trees from our property for a little extra bit of sentimentality. I generally leave the oaks alone for acorn production but this might be a worthy cause.

My wife and I spoke about the project last night and if we can make the space work, I think the Tahoe 23 is the way we would go and probably modify the front cockpit layout a bit to make it a little more guest friendly. She is a designer also and I think she likes the idea of being able to help with that.

I’m going to at least pick up the plans and a few books and spend the winter reading and will probably do the sea kayak kit first as well for a little practice. I’ve got a lot of dying Ash with an expiration date I need to take down and mill but may try and go ahead and knock out a couple hundred BF of Oak this winter as well “just in case”. As you all know, this is a major undertaking and I don’t want to jump into it lightly.

I have to say that I’ve been making my way through your thread for the past few days, it was sort of like reading the Lord of The Rings trilogy, getting to the end and finding out Frodo dies. I wish you the best in whatever you tackle next. I was actually considering building a kit plane prior to this as well and my wife and I both took a few flight lessons but only a plane and flying can make boating seem cheap and the fear of getting grounded for a medical issue as I get older is a scary deterrent. The fact my wife didn’t like the idea of flying in a home-built may have had something to do with it as well. :wink:
-Brandon

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