Designing and Building the Stand Up Helm Station

Questions about modifying a design

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Kevin Morin
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Stand Up Helm Station

Post by Kevin Morin »

kens, you can build any of those ideas using the method I'm explaining.

Is your Double Eagle inboard with the shaft? I see they are in I/O and Outboard versions in the Catalog. You'd mentioned that the helm would sit just aft the engine box. Earlier you mentioned, also, that you'd eliminated the dead wood of the keel, do you have a strut or V strut for the shaft? Is the rudder spade or is there a pintle bearing?

I'll do a quicky DE'gl model to get the hull lines so we can talk about the cabin in context.

cheers
Kevin Morin

Oyster
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Re: Designing and Building the Stand Up Helm Station

Post by Oyster »

Image

If you ask me and if you wish not to have what you call the trawler look, this is still what I would use on you boat. You can still have some shade with adjusting your windshield angle and with a decent overhang on your top. Sorry I don't have any of those fancy drawing programs.

Image

Kevin Morin
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Double Eagle Open

Post by Kevin Morin »

kens,

to make sure I'm on the same page of the song book....

Image

I took the Double Eagle Views online and made a quickie model, put a deck a few inches above the waterline and added the engine box from 8' to 12' forward the transom.

Is this where you're starting?

I'm not all that clear what the trawler look is? Can you give me a little more feedback about what you're trying to avoid?

Oyster, SketchUp is about the easiest to use 3D CAD environment around. It is also one of the least expensive for the features or tool sets. Anyone can learn to drive it and the amount of information you can express is pretty handy when a picture is a worth a lotta words.

cheers,
Kevin Morin

Oyster
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Location: North Carolina

Re: Designing and Building the Stand Up Helm Station

Post by Oyster »

Kevin you ask about his boat, and I posted an actual shot of his boat for quick reference. Real time feely touchy seems to work really well for many people that are not sure what they want, but have an idea of what they do not want. His boat is surely deep enough that even with a stand up component I do not think that proportions will actually be an issue. One thing that I do personally believe in as I described earlier, the top on a level plane or even just a pinch on the down angle will further go a long ways in improving estetics further. But thats just my opinion.

I have built by eye for almost 40 years in some form of the other, beginning with 50 foot sportfishermen and so far color renderings don't do it for me in regards to real life stuff, hince my suggestion for someone thats not quite sure also of the actual outcome as in this case. Some of us are hands on folks and make informed decisions in different ways too. You should see my plans too, or maybe not. You would spill your coffee for sure on the keyboard. :wink: I will bow out here and hope that you can put a look thats acceptable. Thanks for your extra effort. Cheers backatchu.

Kevin Morin
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Double Eagle Picture

Post by Kevin Morin »

Oyster, I didn't realize that picture was of kens' boat!

Alright that's something we can work with. She's pretty and has fair lines, so adding a compact helm station should be a pleasant exercise.

I'd still use the outboard profile of the sheer to make the major outline decisions. I'll try a few houses out for size and see how they look.

thanks for the photo, Oyster, wish I'd recognized the hull !!?? :oops:

cheers,
Kevin Morin

Oyster
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Re: Designing and Building the Stand Up Helm Station

Post by Oyster »

For reference from the photo galley section.

Image


Image

Image

Kevin Morin
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Examples of a Stand Up Helm

Post by Kevin Morin »

Oyster, kens,

I didn't have time to draw so here is a cut and paste exercise, I've shown the same doghouse in scale at 6'2" centerline, [I don't know the deck to sheer ht. for real...].

Image

This cabin is parallel to the deck/waterline and the after edge is even and plumb.

Image

kens, Oyster's point somewhat illustrated in this second image of the outboard profile. The cabin is now leaned aft just slightly to give the top of the cabin a line down aft- that is also true of the median line, and the cabin has been adjusted up a slight amount to ge the same head room as shown above in the plumb version.

These two images help to see the difference a few inches of inclination or slope to these outlines make in the overall look of the boat.

Image

here is a forward quarter look at the plumb cabin

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followed by the same point of view of the aft sloping top version.

If you have time, kens, and would let me know if this example makes the trawler look that you're trying to avoid (?) I'll give another go at trying to explore these lines.

cheers,
Kevin Morin

Kevin Morin
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Building the Helm Station

Post by Kevin Morin »

This post just explains a simple way to layout and building jig for one of these helm stations.

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I just use saw horses and some particle board or plywood.

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the ply is made into one plane by overlapping and marking for miters or butt joints.

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once cut to fit they're made into a relatively flat surface by cheek blocking underneath and the whole set up can be screwed to the saw horses so it won't shift around too much.

Image

next the outline of the base is drawn on the flat working table. If your cabin will have to bolt/screw/fasten to a wood or glass deck then you'd be making a lower flange plate of the size and arrangement of the outline shown here. This version is drawn where the cabin base will be built so it can be welded to an aluminum deck.

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this image shows a group of 'pizza pan panels' already tacked on to the plywood base or working table to explain why the base layout is done at the table ht.

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the last image shows how to 'weld to plywood'. By using small tabs of aluminum (1/8" x 2" x 2") with a few holes in them you can screw the tabs down where you want to tack. Then hold the cabin base panels together with vise grip type pliers on their inner edges and locate them to the base pattern and tack.

If you were building for a bolt-in structure then a 2" -3" wide flange would be screwed to the ply, and the panels would be fit to tack every few inches continuously along the intersection between the vertical panels and the base. Since it may be difficult to get a drill motor extremely close to the vertical pans and still make a nice vertical drilled hole- it may be the best time to layout and drill the final holes to size?

This same method allows wood to be used to make formers for the metal, seriously reducing jig cost and saving metal. since most formers only need to be in place until cold formed panels or sheet goods can be marked taken off and cut then returned to be held in shape while tacked.

cheers,
Kevin Morin

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kens
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Location: Coastal Georgia

Re: Designing and Building the Stand Up Helm Station

Post by kens »

Kevin, Oyster:
Wow!! You guys are great. I really appreciate the help from some experienced folks.
All you guys ideas are welcomed. I am most definitely open to fresh ideas here, from either of you, or anyone else that has input. I am heading into a project that hasnt been done yet that I know of. I am looking for ideas to prevent me from having a cabin that has 'less than sweet' lines.
All your ideas are good ones. I have an open mind, but lack imagination to come up with the lines I am seeking. I am excited by the imagination from you guys.
Yes, that is the basic layout of my boat, 24'8" OAL x 8' beam. My helm right now is I stand over the shaftlog. Straight shaft inboard borgwarner velvet reduction.
The question was dimension sheer to sole, it is 24" at the helm.

This is a example of the trawler look I mentioned. I do appreciate the lines of a trawler, but not for my project at this time. This is where I feel the need to adjust the 'proportions' to get a better fit.

Image
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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kens
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Re: Designing and Building the Stand Up Helm Station

Post by kens »

I would like to add an analogy here.
Ken Hankinson drew the Vandal, a Tug design that gets up on plane and moves out. It looks fair and sweet.
Is it possible to do similar with the lines I posted above, that is, draw a Trawler that gets up on plane and moves out. Making the lines fair and sweet.
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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kens
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Re: Designing and Building the Stand Up Helm Station

Post by kens »

Check this one out. This is as pretty & sweet as any other boat floating, and it has forward rake glass.
It looks like a tug,...........but its not.

It is called Iron Kyle, and the guy that drew this has one sharp eye and a sharp pencil too!!

Can I get sweet lines also with the forward rake?

http://books.google.com/books?id=yc6QDZ ... t&resnum=1
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

Kevin Morin
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Kenai, Alaska

David Gerr: Marine Architect

Post by Kevin Morin »

kens,
Iron Kyle is from the board of Dave Gerr, [http://www.gerrmarine.com/] Marine Architect and Engineer and the current director of Westlawn School of Yacht Design, and you are right he has a "good eye" and a "fine hand".

Dave has written the definitive books on "The Nature of Boats", "The Propeller Handbook", " Boat Strength" and his newest recently published "Mechanical Systems" everyone of these books is the best in its topical area now published because of how extensively he covers the subjects. The scope is so wide it allows you to use the books as a text to learn the basics then follow his examples and begin making calculations for your specific design.

The newest learning designer builder will find a wealth of information that educates and informs and the most seasoned professional designer can make use of his wonderfully engineered equations for quick approximations of scantlings and proportions. ***

Notice in my first post I mentioned that a stand up helm has the design [headache] challenge of looking good when the boat and house a bit out of proportion? Of Mr. Gerr had the 'luxury' of size when he drew the Iron Kyle, but it sure has lovely proportions.

One of his smaller power boats has a nice looking fan tail that is enough to make you stare, and that's just at pictures of the lines!

I'll give a few examples of some ideas that might help your design along and we'll see how you think they look. In the mean time I'm also going to keep the 'tutorial' going so the idea can be used by others to adapt to their own boats.

[*** You might notice that I am a complete fan of Dave Gerr's body of work, history will remember him with Herreshoff, Wm Garden and Jack Hargrave- a great contribution to marine design innovations, engineering excellence, and clear lucid writing that helps others benefit from their fine minds.]

cheers,
Kevin Morin

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kens
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Re: Designing and Building the Stand Up Helm Station

Post by kens »

I got all Gerr's books except the new one.
I even called him and asked if he could help me with this. He said he was too busy otherwise with Westlawn. I couldnt hire him, so now I gotta find another way to get 'er done.
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

Oyster
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Re: Designing and Building the Stand Up Helm Station

Post by Oyster »

Looking at the rendering and the boat sitting in the water, its quite possible to move the doghouse foward in front of the engine wrapping around the front end of the engine box Allow the back of the doghouse to be open with the engine box extending a bit into the back of the doghouse and install a pedestal seat on top of the box. This would allow the doghouse to be a bit more in balance fore and aft, getting some weight foward too. You can still open the box backwards with the back of the doghouse open and with the nice height. You also have the option for a drop curtain for inclement weather too. You do a deflecter gutter on the top across the back and each side keeping rain water out of the entrance ways which will be middle ways or so on the side panels free of rain water.

Kevin Morin
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Designing the Stand Up Helm Station

Post by Kevin Morin »

kens,

here is a friend's welded aluminum skiff that was from Ken Hankinson's design firm a few years ago. I don't know if it is the Chinook but my friend designed and built the weather helm from his own ideas after reading the article I'm working on here.

Image

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Do you have specific reaction to this cabin? It would help to understand what looks good and what doesn't- in your view of the examples already posted.

cheers,
Kevin Morin

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