Glen-L.com

No, none that makes me jump up excited as yet. The last one, Kevin is the best thus far.
looks like it also has the most brow, or, crown.
What if the roof line was extending farther aft, and the brow farther forward.
Like the online catalog I posted, the California XR had extended roof on all sides. It seemed to make the roof bigger (less phonebooth)

_________________
God Bless our Troops; especially our Snipers

No matter how much overhang you have in the eyebrow and any fat curve and the likes and if you are insistant on the reverse windows, if you go foward and have the little extra aft around the engine box with the entrance midddle ways of the sides, you will not get the phone booth look. The problem is that the fore and aft deminsion is not in proportion to the overall height. You need more inches fore and aft Your boat will look much more better. This is why the link that you posted looks nice to you, as its on a bigger boat and a bigger component comes into play. The house has a side window and if you look closely you will see there is a door aft of the window which lengthens the overall shape by comparison to the height. my pennies worth

I will expand on my previous comment about the telephone booth look you speak about. The mear reverse windshield in the setup that you are attempting to do automatically makes the look more pronounced when you only have enough room equivilant to a person's body size plus helm area. Unless you add some type of arrangment to the side deminisions I do not feel that you will be contented with the look of the reverse windshield unless the reverse is only a couple of inches off of plumb from the deck to the top's edge .. If you go the widening or in this case the lengthening route, then the appearance of the motor's position is such that I don't think that this addition will fit nicely behind the motor and be too pleasing to the eye either of really functional all the time. Of course thats up for interpretation of each and every boat owner too. Its hard to tell but thats my opinion from what it looks from here.


Now I will be on my way to glue up some wood on my own today and see you on the flip side after hopefully there will be some further feedback that will provide direction for further imput.

kens,
here are a few changes.

First there is an engine cover/cowling in front of the cabin, next there is a slight forward rake to the after cabin line and an overhang.

The brow is not really very finished looking (quickie shape) and the median line at the 3' line in the cabin is slightly curved to make it more in keeping with the sheer. The coloring, as always, is intended to help make visual separation not to be the suggested paint job.

What we're trying to do is to get your feedback- #1 needs this..., or #2 is better but still.... # 3 is better or worse?; without some idea of what you do or don't like, base, median, window band, and top (with brow) there's not way to be much help?





Back to the design discussion about stand up helm stations:

The top has two or three shapes that need to be described then explained. Side to side curvature is camber, the more (camber) there is the more curved the surface is, and this helps to make the look of a cabin. Since you won't stand against a wall of a cabin and mainly only stand in the middle- camber can also allow the two sides to be lower with only a standing area in the centerline.

The reason to consider this is the extreme proportions we're trying to balance, and as Oyster has observed, the smaller boat's 6'3" cabin is much taller than the same ht on the 40 waterline.



This sketch helps to show the effect on the shape of the brow of the two main curves that determine the shape of the front of the cabin's brow. The camber or amount of curvature from side to side of the top surfac is shown by a series of blue cabin top 'blanks'. The forward curve of the pilot house brow is part of a cylinder that varies in diameter. These different shapes are shown in yellow and they are inclined aft to different degrees.

By changing the camber of the cabin top, the size of the cylinder diameter at the brow and the inclination of that cylinder's axis- you determine the brow shape's basic limits.

If you are used to metal working and drawing your own designs this may seem oversimplified, and too basic to mention? However its included here to make the point that there are unlimited number of combinations that might be employed to draw the traditional brow, or visor, over the windscreen regardless if it leans aft, is plumb, or is raked forward as we've been discussing.

I think its most important to try drawing different combinations - afterall what we all enjoy so much about Dave Gerr's drawing of the Iron Kyle was the fine sense of harmony or nicely proportioned curves fitting together in a pleasing way. So to make the house design system I'm advocating here, you'd have to draw, draw, draw.

One last note about the last image; the lower edge of the intersecting blue cabin top blanks are all flat planes. An entire different look begins to emerge when you make that line a curve as well. The lower curve need not be the same camber as the top to produce an entirely new set of brow lines which are even more attractive than might be drawn with the lower edge a flat plane intersection.

For anyone not familiar with this geometry, I suspect it will take a few minutes and some pencil time to make the point. If just looking at the sketch doesn't make for a clear understanding(?) all I can suggest is an investment of time to sketch and test these relationships until you 'see' the concept.

cheers,

_________________
Kevin Morin

We've started to look at the brow and cabin top surface so here are some more sketches to explore the shapes.



Here is the basic surface (yellow) which is what happens when the blue top is intersected with the brown inclined cylinder of the brow surface. The curves are very crude and the shapes show up as faceted instead of smooth curves, but I hope these don't confuse your view?



Of course when you build the house top and brow you don't need a cylinder of rolled plate so here is a view of the 'blank' of sheet material you'd hold up to strike the shape off the cambered roof. This simplified version shows the blue visor or brow piece that is the goal.



This sketch explores the effect of inclination of the brow- the angle that the brow leans aft or rakes aft. This sketch tries to make just one variable more clear- how the brow of the same arc [or diameter of cylinder] will look different leaned more or less.

These sketches help to visualize the relationship between two cylindrical intersections that are common to the cabin roof lines we're discussing. They are not a design, but are the building blocks for YOUR design. If you draw more or less of any of the curves - camber of the top [in Body Plan View] or arc of the brow [in the Plan View] you will get some variation of lines and 'style' of the brow. The last feature to explore is the angle of the rake of the brow, where a more leaned piece would result in a brow that was longer, and much more extended and the more plump the cylinder of the brow's surface the shorter and less extended this piece will be.

cheers,

_________________
Kevin Morin

Lets take a look at the actual construction methods in the top of the cabin.



We looked at a base table on which to build the lower cabin from pre-bent panels and there we used wood with small pieces of aluminum screwed on at a way to 'weld to wood'. Not only did the aluminum use the wood to locate it during construction tack-up, but the aluminum was held in place until other parts could be tacked to restrict its movement.

Here the top of the house has been tacked up, and two wooded frames are tacked to the inside of the cabin sides by using the same screw on tabs from the base jig. Their shape is laid out as a cambered arc and they're trimmed to length if the side of the pilot house are not parallel. By clamping the sheet over this form/temporary frame you'd have the shape of the final top, overhang fore and aft as well as on both sides can all be taken into account.

Once the piece is removed and cut it can be installed by tacking to the cabin sides and windscreen. Note hat the curve of the windscreen' stop edge is already shown cambered upward. This layout would be done by leaving the windscreen blank 'too tall' by the amount of the camber plus a 1/2". Then an arc can be drawn on the after side using a straight edge laying along both the camber frames. This cut line would be drawn on the after side of the windscreen blank and cut before it was tacked to the median and sides.

This is a simple method to fit and cold form a cabin top without rolling the material. Notice the two flat bars in front of the cabin? The simplest framing (if needed) is to press a pair of flat bars to the top underneath. Using a 2x4 wedged between the base frame/floor and the top push the wider (2" x 3/16" or 1/4") bar up to the top and tack on 4" centers. Follow that with a 1" x 3/16" (or 1/4") flat bar centered in the previous piece- and tack. When these are welded/stitched out; they will form a stiffener that has 'no' vertical ht. but plenty of strength to walk on if the cabin is 4-6' wide.



This is an example of the brow arc layout. In this case I've drawn the arc centered on after edge of the cabin (for my convenience) and this won't always be the case. If you'd chosen a very curved forward arc the arc point may be much farther forward, depending on the length fore and aft of your structure. If you'd chosen a much less curved brow, a very shallow arc will require a longer radius so you may have to put a temporary center several feet aft the cabin in order to swing this arc.



A wooden trammel bar or compass is used to make the curved line that will be the forward arcing cut of the brow to cabin top intersection. The trammel will follow along the camber without too much effort and if the top is already tacked to the pilot house sides and windscreen then you can just jig saw this off on a step ladder.



I should have redrawn this image since the top and bottom of the brow blank are already somewhat curved and they would make more sense if they were a square sided piece of plate/sheet. What you can see is the brow is held against the top of the cabin when the forward arc is already cut. This sheet can be inclined more or less to give more or less extended brow lines.

If you are working cold you will need to have a wedge cut to fit the centerline above OR below the top so the blank is clamped at the correct angle. Now, with the blank touching along the top cut (don't worry about the bottom line yet) mark the cut line, remove cut and tack the blank edge to edge with the cabin top as it extends forward of the windscreen.



Once the brow blank is tacked to the top along the arc of the forward edge you can strike the lower line. If you hold a flexible aluminum bar- plumb; no matter what the arc you describe that bar's lower edge will be in a flat plane. If you lean that same bar aft the line you draw will arc upward and if you lean that bar forward the line you draw will be dipped downward in the middle of the brow.

This method allows you to very simply draw a fair line along curved surface of the brow blank that is tacked to the top. By controlling the flat bar's inclination or eliminating inclination you will control the type of intersecting arc you draw on the brow or visor's lower edge of the cabin. When you've drawn or looked at some of these items on other boats you will begin to notice (I hope) that this is a very critical line in the overall effect of the looks of these cabins.

[NOTE: Again the curvature setting in the software I'm using is set so coarsely that the bars looked bent into segments instead of rolled in to curves, that may be confusing in the images here so the viewer is reminded to that the ideas are not misunderstood.]

As with any article that relies heavily on the sketches to provide the majority of information you may have to spend a few minutes looking at the images and sketching on your own for the principles to become clear? Hopefully the examples will be seen for what they are: just one method of laying out and building a pilot house of welded sheet metal.

cheers,

_________________
Kevin Morin

OK, in order to keep the topic moving I'd like to look at the corners of the brow as they meet the sides of the roof overhang.



In these views the corner is squared off and that is how many builders choose to leave this intersection. I'd like to say that this corner is another detail that is worth the time to make rounded. If you round these corners there is a simple way to fit these parts shown below.



The [pink] pipe doesn't have to be 6" diameter, as any aluminum pipe extrusion will work. The pipe will need to be intersected to the two surfaces of sheet so that its cylindrical surface is tangent to the other two surfaces, one -the brow, is another cylinder and, two- the side piece is a flat surface.



Here are a pair of views that show the corner trimmed to the two intersecting lines but the pipe still in tact so the correlation is most obvious. What gets trimmed out of the pipe wall is a segment of about 1/4 or less the circumference and a descending curving edge above and below that segment.

This fit is not the easiest work but if you begin by segmenting the pipe with two parallel cuts along the length and hold that 1/4 segment to the incline of the brow, the two intersecting lines, one on the brow and one on the side strip could be located. As another aid put the pipe segment on top of the house inclined aft the same angle as the brow and hold it near the corner to see how far inboard the brow intersection will be and how far aft the side intersection line will be.

Cheers,

_________________
Kevin Morin

Kevin,
That last picture is better.
What if you extended the roof farther aft, and let that arc (scallop) flow with the longer roof?

_________________
God Bless our Troops; especially our Snipers

Here is some lines I really like.:


Although that appears to be a Flying Bridge, I am proposing to use similar lines (scallops) to enhance the brow of roof. Rather than a flyin bridge, just use those lines to make it maybe 4 or so inches tall at the front, and flow the lines aft. This psuedo flyin bridge could be used to mount nav lights and be only high enough to hide some GPS antennas.
Maybe this would add enough bulk (adding size) to make it look better.

_________________
God Bless our Troops; especially our Snipers

kens,

I already had these going without the step or cusp in the brow, I'll try another version. Comments are good, as I'm full of ..... ideas... (that's not what you were thinking I was full of -is it? )



Here the brow is taller forward and the camber of the house is both ways, lots of people will tell this is hard to do but its not that difficult, just a little clamping unless you have an English wheel?



some boats in this style have the house top all the way aft? there are no legs or struts shown but if you get too much longer you'll have to consider some form of support, including legs into the aft gunwale into sockets?



cheers,

_________________
Kevin Morin

kens,

here are some more looks at a brow that has less inclined forward section and a scallop in the side.





Let me know how we're doing so I can edit the model and look at more possibilities.

For anyone reading this topic; these examples go along way toward making my point about the effects of this part of the pilot houses' shape being out of proportion to how small the part is. All I've edited are the brow and side plates along the top and the length of the top and the skiff does look different in the various "hats on".

cheers,

_________________
Kevin Morin

Getting better all the time.
I am interested in the nav lights as seen on larger tugs & trawlers. I found a similar pic of the 'style' light I am thinking.



I only using this pic as example of the style of light. See the reflector, or, shield with the light..........I am proposing this 'style light'.
....................................................................
Let me propose a flying bridge here. The flying bridge would only be about 4" tall and it would set on top of the roof; the roof keeps its forward brow and the flying bridge attenuates that brow. The nav lights mount on the sides of the flying bridge.
.......Look at the workboat that I posted earlier. Take that lines of that flying bridge and make it 1/6 as tall as it currently is. It is not really a flying bridge, but it only exists to attenuate the brow and it has the long flowing scallop. With it set in from each side, the nav lights wont light up the decks.

_________________
God Bless our Troops; especially our Snipers

So where were we..........

Oyster, you had mentioned moving the house forward. I am beginning to warm to that idea.
Kevin was making some lines for the roof & brow.

_________________
God Bless our Troops; especially our Snipers

kens, Oyster

I'm still out of the office with the CAD systems and can't update for a day or so the current drawings.

I have some cabin details to discuss for the main concept of this topic and an idea to see how close we're coming to something to inspire kens to cut metal.

If anyone else is interested in some or another detail or clarification of what I've tried to explain to this point, I'd be happy to hear from you so the cabin design method can be as useful as possible. I've looked at the Glen-L cabin plans package, well the online outboard sketches, and each of them could be adapted to this method, although we haven't discussed some of the details enough for that claim to be obvious at this point.

cheers,

_________________
Kevin Morin