Safety

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Alaned
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Safety

Post by Alaned »

Hi all I as was wondering if there should be a new topic on the forum
Safety

Unfortunately a couple of weeks ago on our lake a family had been asleep with a generator running below deck piped out through the hull, and some how carbon monoxide had got in to the cabin and sadly killed the mother and daughter.

We have fitted a carbon monoxide detector in our bayliner 2958 which has a very large cabin, today as we warmed the engines up, as we have countless times before with the cabin door open about 10 minuets later the alarm sounded !

Advice to all fit an alarm and stay safe
My Malahini The Story so far....
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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Safety

Post by Bill Edmundson »

Sadly there are many safety topics. I learned this weekend, here on coastal Alabama, that cigerette boater hit a flying bridge sport fisherman's wake. The boat broke in half and the guy was killed. Double stupid!

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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raymacke
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Re: Safety

Post by raymacke »

There are probably a few boating safety concerns I sometimes don't grant enough attention but CO2 is not one of them. I have a marine propane heater installed that uses outside air for combustion as well as vents exhaust outside but still not comfortable sleeping with it running. I also have a portable gasoline generator that is mounted outside the hull on the swim platform and could be used to run an electric heater or A/C unit (someday) and all doors and windows would be closed but again I am paranoid about sleeping with it running. I know many boaters have no problem with either one of these. I too have a CO2 monitor installed and it has never sounded but I am still not comfortable running either at night. Yea, paranoid about this is probably the best description.
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....

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Lowka53
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Re: Safety

Post by Lowka53 »

I can think of three items ever boat that has sleeping with food preparation area and alternate battery charging. the co2 is a yes. (even for inboards with any cabin area). propane sensors or fuel fume type are a must. and smoke detectors. you have to remember co2 is heaver than air as is propane and will seek the lowest point. and most sleeping areas are at the bottom of our boats. Just my 2 cents worth
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raymacke
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Re: Safety

Post by raymacke »

First, I said CO2 above – Wrong – just CO! (Senior Moment)

The whole CO detector placement thing is fairly confusing. When I bought them for our home I just plugged them in a convenient outlets that happened to be low closer to the floor. When I added one in my True Grit I questioned where it should go. I consulted the unit’s directions but was surprised they offered no guidance as to where vertically it should be mounted.

The answer I was finally able to glean from different sources is the height makes no difference. Carbon Dioxide (CO2) is a little heavier than air but only slightly so and as a result readily mixes the surround air very quickly. It is similar to smoke or very fine dust – both are heavier than air but are readily suspended by it. The big worry for boaters is Carbon Monoxide (CO) and it is slightly lighter than air but also mixes very quickly. In the levels of concentrations that may build as result of normal combustion it appears the height of the detector is not a concern because of the rapid mixing. Even so, some do state at least 4” down from the ceiling. It would be nice it they had made that clear on the packaging.

Info link - http://www.mudomaha.com/naturalgas/COdetect.html

And yes, I have a propane alarm that automatically shuts off the tank if a leak is detected. I have sensors for it both in the cabin and in the lowest part of the bilge.
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....

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Lowka53
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Re: Safety

Post by Lowka53 »

raymacke wrote:First, I said CO2 above – Wrong – just CO! (Senior Moment)

The big worry for boaters is Carbon Monoxide (CO) and it is slightly lighter than air but also mixes very quickly.
And yes, I have a propane alarm that automatically shuts off the tank if a leak is detected. I have sensors for it both in the cabin and in the lowest part of the bilge.
:lol: like you I had a senior moment but a senior blond moment I meant Carbon Monoxide (CO) co2 would not be a problem unless you discharge your fire extinguisher in your cabin. 8)
Don't be afraid to attempt anything. You might surprise your self in the attempt.
http://www.facebook.com/Home.Made.Boat.Building
Bon Voyage-"Wild Flower" 40' house boat being built
14' Mr John-being built
32' Supper Huck-in design

Rod H

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raymacke
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Re: Safety

Post by raymacke »

had a senior moment but a senior blond moment
Loka53 - don't know about you but for me they sure seem to be getting more frequent............ :shock:
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....

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Lowka53
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Re: Safety

Post by Lowka53 »

:roll: what was that oh yes seems to be but I have been a little that way all my life being born blond :lol: I hate when I go to get something out of shop and forget what I went in there for :wink:
Don't be afraid to attempt anything. You might surprise your self in the attempt.
http://www.facebook.com/Home.Made.Boat.Building
Bon Voyage-"Wild Flower" 40' house boat being built
14' Mr John-being built
32' Supper Huck-in design

Rod H

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ttownshaw
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Re: Safety

Post by ttownshaw »

Good posts and advice...you're right...safety (boating, construction, operation...) would be a good topic.
Bill

I told my wife we needed a three-car garage for my projects...she told me to ask her for permission next time before I buy a house.
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rjw
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Re: Safety

Post by rjw »

RE: CO and Placement of CO detectors

I have been trained as a Carbon Monoxide and Combustion Analyst.*

CO is about the same weight as the other chemical components of air. BUT it is produced by inefficient combustion and is usually hot when it enters a living space and thus first rises to the ceiling.

I have tested rooms with faulty combustion heaters and failed venting with a CO meter (not a consumer CO detector) and have measured significantly different CO levels at different heights within a room, with the higher levels higher in the room. (Yes, over time they will cool and mix, but initially CO rises within a space.)

Here's what I recommend for houses - boats will likely need some common sense adaptation:

First CO detector - one with a digital readout** mounted high in a room, but not within 18" of corners or wall/ceiling intersections, and not near ceiling fans or other sources of drafts.

If there is a medically compromised person, put the first detector in that person's room: infant/baby, elderly; and/or immune system compromised folks.

Second CO detector: In the combustion zones (e.g., in a house, in the furnace room, water heater zone, etc) Try to have a CO detector on each living level of the house.

.
If your alarm goes off: (1) turn off all combustion appliances (um, on a boat at sea, you might need to leave the engine(s) going - give serious thought to calling the Coast Guard or other rescue services and get into fresh air)

(2) Evacuate the area. Call a qualified contractor. Not everyone with a CO meter is qualified.*** If the person you call just tests the room/cabin air, find someone else - that isn't how you do it (other than an initial quick check to be sure the area is safe to enter.) And if the contractor just sticks the meter probe in an air duct, send him on his way**** - maybe suggest he be sure his liability insurance is paid up. Then get someone else.

Boats will call for differing approaches, but the general idea is to test the combustion gases within the venting system (flue) and to test the air flows/draft of the combustion gases in the flue. And this needs to be done over a period of time - at least 10 minutes per combustion appliance - sometimes more. (And a really good analyst will also measure oxygen levels and temperatures in the flue gases to determine the combustion completeness and efficiencies.)

Be aware that lower levels and long term CO exposure can cause significant, long term and even permanently disabling medical conditions -- Just because you aren't dead doesn't mean you don't have any CO problems!

== = =
*NCI # CO413405 - no longer current since retirement

** Those with meters are far more sensitive than the cheaper ones. And be aware that long exposures to low levels of CO can have serious health effects with no symptoms during initial exposures

*** When I got my first CO meter, I did what they showed in the equipment catalogue: I stuck the probe in the air ducts. I have no idea why I thought a magazine photographer would have any idea of how to use one. Fortunately, the statute of limitations ran out years ago on my initial "tests."

In my area (NW Ohio) most heating contractors do not have a clue as to how to deal with CO. Nor do the fire departments. Some of the gas company people have been adequately trained, but not all.

**** I've only had one situation where sticking my probe in an air duct showed anything. I was responding to an activated alarm call. In the course of testing the furnace and water heater in the basement, I couldn't find anything wrong with either. But over the course of an hour or so, I noticed that CO levels in the ambient air of the furnace room was rising. I stuck the probe in the return air duct and found high levels. Which I then traced back to the oven in the kitchen which was emitting huge amounts of CO - the homeowner had started to bake while I was in the basement testing the furnace and water heater.....

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Safety

Post by Bill Edmundson »

rjw

THANK YOU. An Informed answer is the best answer. This is important stuff.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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Alaned
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Re: Safety

Post by Alaned »

Great article well done
My Malahini The Story so far....
http://boatbuilders.glen-l.com/malahini ... llery=1373

My Bayliner on Lake Windermere England
https://plus.google.com/photos/10294833 ... -IbG3Yi8NA

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raymacke
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Re: Safety

Post by raymacke »

rjw's answer is far better than anything I found with a Google search.

Thanks!
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....

Shayne
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Re: Safety

Post by Shayne »

The CO detector is now widely applied in household. It is regarded as a indispensable security system.

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