Sailboat design/build culture question

Dinghies, day sailers, world cruisers. Many small sailboats make ideal rowboats or low-speed power boats.

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drkorgdev
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Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by drkorgdev » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:29 pm

Hi, Newbie here. I am going to build a Saboteer. However, I am,... concerned is too strong a word...Rather, I note, within the forum here and at Woodenboat forum, there seems to be very little community nor discussion regarding the design. There are no projects in the registry here at Glen-L. The images one finds with a Google search are the same promotional few that are here at the Glen-L site.

I come from a homebuilt aircraft background. That experience shows me that popular craft garner much discussion (good and bad). People are proud of what they have built and want to show it off, comment on it, share their project specific experience. Perhaps the lack of discussion is a boat culture-thing that I just don't get yet.

What's your opinion for a lack of design specific discussions? Is there something inherent in the Saboteer, or characteristic of us Saboteer builders that leads to a lack of design/project specific discussion?

Does anyone know, in general or Saboteer specific, how many plans/kits get sold? the completion rates? etc. Perhaps there are just too few to support discussion.

Thanks...so there's the topic - discuss.
drkorgdev

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Lowka53
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by Lowka53 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:08 pm

:lol: Well my boat isn't in the forum topic often either but allot of what is said in the forum will match the build method of most boats and if you have a question ask there are allot of very good builders here. :lol: some boats are just a popular style some more popular than others don't be afraid to build the boat you want help will be here for you when you need it. :wink: ok I looked up the design it is a pram with a sail i will show you one that is similar
37004_135215499838288_126443637382141_312495_3276612_n.jpg
this one wasn't built with the center board but had one the dropped down from the side this boat was built over 20 years ago.
28628_130074727019032_126443637382141_284862_8020264_n.jpg
this one isn't quite the same still it is about 15 years old before Katrina took it out. there are other small sail boats being built at this time and people may not have registerd there build
Last edited by Lowka53 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rob Myran
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by Rob Myran » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:31 pm

Hi, and welcome to the boat building community.

I guess some of what you are concerned about is do to the nature of boat building and the dreamers who decide to do this.

First, it is easier to buy a boat and maybe fix it up a bit than to build one.

2. Many people may want to build but don't have the confidence or think they have the skills to build.

3. Of those that do build a boat, many are afraid that their efforts will be ridiculed or found lacking by the "real boat builders".

4. Many buy plans, and may even start building, but other aspects of life get in the way, and projects are postponed or languish. I had to suspend building my Minuet last year because the economic situation forced me to re-roof my house and money and time were not available for both. I have now resumed building.

5. The efforts of building a boat are primarily solo in nature. Hours after work and on weekends working in the back yard or garage, often without a whole lot of family support for your obsession.

All in all, I think there actually is more support and discussion than you have really become aware of so far. Some of that is through taking your boat to gatherings such as sponsored by The Glen-L folks. There is also the mess abouts such as the one held on Lake Pepin, MN in the Spring http://www.lakepepinmessabout.com/Welcome.html , or the Woodies On The Water at the Barker's Island Marina in Superior, WI. Also the bigger boat shows like the Madisonville Wooden Boat Festival http://www.woodenboatfest.org/ in the Fall, or the Port Townsend's Wooden Boat Festival http://woodenboat.org/festival/ . Just look through Wooden Boat Magazine in their event schedule for numerous events.

As to the Saboteer specifically, it may be that there are so many various small sailing and rowing dinghies that people build that there is not much specific topic info on that one design, but more across a class of boat designs.

Building airplanes may have more specific disussions because more support may be needed to build one well, and building an airplane badly would have more severe ramifications than building a small sailing dinghy badly.

- My 2 cents.
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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by Bill Edmundson » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:08 pm

Bob
Some of that is through taking your boat to gatherings such as sponsored by The Glen-L folks.
You said a lot of things that cover our reasons and choices.

But, "the Gathering" is not a sponsored event. Several of us started talking about it about 5 years ago. Everyone comes independently. Glen-L does sponsor this forum. They have come to the Gathering each year to meet the builders and now friends. But, this is just people coming to the same lake on the same weekend.

Sorry Bob. It is just to make it clear that there is no "organization". Not a soapbox or anything personal.

Bill
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vupilot
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by vupilot » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:54 pm

Just typing as I ponder here... I think its all numbers. The more people that have a stake in a particular design the more its discussed.

Furthermore, the Saboteer in particular is not especially unique. Prams are available almost anywhere, so your only means of obtaining one isnt just by building it yourself. In comparison the Glen-L Tubby Tug is pretty unique by design, you cant find anything even remotely similar at your local boat dealership so the only means of getting one is to build one. So people interested in that kind of boat are drawn to the glen-l forum to discuss them because its the only place to do so.

I think your concerns are true for many glen-l designs, they have so many its hard to find people to build them all. A handful of the designs fit many peoples wants and needs in a boat so you see several of the same design being built and discussed alot. Kinda like you see lots of Vans RV airplanes built and discussed but not much Delta Dyke discussion.

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Stuart
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by Stuart » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:24 am

@lowka53; Did you know what type of wood or ply was used on those boats?

I tend to agree that the reason some types of boats are not commonly discussed is due to numbers. I would also tend to think that the longer the build takes the more often one would post for advice. It is not uncommon for a build to take serveral years but that is also true for aircraft.

About buying a used boat. Recently I have looked at Ebay to view the sailboats that are for sale. While I have been told, due to the economic down turn, that a lot of folk don't have the money to keep their boat in the water and therefore are putting them up for sale cheaply, I have also noticed that every single sail boat on ebay is getting bids and it is not uncommon to see up and over 20 bids on any size of boat. I tend to think the buyers are competing fairly strongly and the availability of a low cost used boat may be thinning.

The used boat market is often full of 70's and 80's fiberglass styles which in the majority had terrible interiors in my opinion. Some the exteriors were not real perdy either. The real nice boats are still costly and they are often old enough to be needing a new boat in repairs. So while I will agree, buying is cheaper and liquor is quicker, it may be approaching a time when getting the boat you want may still be cost competitive with building.

Stuart

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TiredParent
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by TiredParent » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:28 am

Generally, those of us who decided to build a sailing pram are doing so to practice basic boat building skills. Such was the case with me. I decided to build the Eight Ball, the Saboteer's little brother, but it could have gone the other way if a sailing pram had been my ultimate goal. There's also the fact that the Eight Ball is a little easier to transport, and will make a handier small boat for the bigger boat I'd like to build someday.

As to the Saboteer, it looks like a perfectly fine sailing dory.

upspirate

Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by upspirate » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:08 am

In my opinion,the Saboteer is very similar to the Sabot, which seems to be somewhat localized to the west coast area.

My old neighbor was a pro boat yard worker & built several Sabots,one that I sailed in with him.

To me it seems to be a good design,with the v bottom,tracks well,rows well and was stable with two adults.

Most small pram builders either do so as practice for a bigger boat or just want a small sailing dinghy....they don't seem to participate in the forum unless they have some problems,then when done don't show up anymore with any discussions...happens with other designs too.

Maybe you can set a precedent!! We welcome you and any input questions and pics!!!

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Lowka53
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by Lowka53 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:36 am

Stuart wrote:@lowka53; Did you know what type of wood or ply was used on those boats? stuart
they both was built out of marine plywood with fiberglass encapulation. the smaller one was glued together with epoxy and contain no nails or screws. my brother built both boats the one that is leaning up in the barn is still used at times in our ponds at the farm it was orginally used as his dingy for his larger sail boat that looked allot like a glen-l plan but I am not sure what it was I do know it wasn't a factory produced boat
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Rob Myran
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by Rob Myran » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:15 am

"the Gathering" is not a sponsored event.
Sorry to have mis-spoke. I guess since the only place i hear about the gatherings is on this forum, and the fact that Gayle and some Glen-L folks come to the gatherings, made me thing there was sponsorship. I guess "approval and encouragement" would have been a better phrase.

Well, a high five to the guys who organize and pull these off each year!
Another fine mess I've gotten myself into!

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Lowka53
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by Lowka53 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:20 am

Rob Myran wrote:
"the Gathering" is not a sponsored event.
Sorry to have mis-spoke. I guess since the only place i hear about the gatherings is on this forum, and the fact that Gayle and some Glen-L folks come to the gatherings, made me thing there was sponsorship. I guess "approval and encouragement" would have been a better phrase.

Well, a high five to the guys who organize and pull these off each year!
well Glen-l does have it posted on its face book but I also have it posted on my face book under home made boat building. and they attend and do take photo etc at the meets and post them on there site and put info on there news letters my site is http://www.facebook.com/pages/Home-made ... 141?v=wall :roll: :lol:
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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by Bill Edmundson » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:28 am

:lol:
"approval and encouragement"
I think, that is more correct. :wink: There is a "Disclaimer" thread, under Gathering 2010, that explains it a little more.

Bill
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by upspirate » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:18 am

Yep,The Gathering just came about cause a bunch of Internet boatbuilding junkies that happen to build mostly Glen-L boats and are on this forum,decided to have a mass "C&C" time and meet face to face and look at each others projects.

Nothing more and nothing less....'bout sums it up!!!

The logistics have gotten bigger with the growing number of people(food,location,lodging etc),but basically a bunch of friends on an extended picnic!

drkorgdev
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by drkorgdev » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:54 pm

Thanks all for the comments and opinions. There was some nice insight here. Thanks for the "Gathering" tip. I hadn't seen that.

My question really was pointed towards understanding this world and much less towards affirming my own design choice. We all have reasons for what we choose. Mine is grounded in replicating, as close a reasonably and practically possible, a boat that my wife had growing up. Her grandfather built it back in late 50s and this boat will be our daughter's.

My next big challenge in this world of small sailboats in language. From my airplane world I can talk all day about decalage, empenage, p-factor, PIO, etc. Sailboats is presenting a fun new language experience; halyards, sheets, and a variety of lug rig options.

On to more learning, building and of course posts....

drkorgdev

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Lowka53
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Re: Sailboat design/build culture question

Post by Lowka53 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:07 pm

:lol: my friend i suggest you get familiar buy and read two books sold here on glen -l sight they are Boatbuilders notebook and Boatbuilding with plywood they will get you familiar with the terms and methods. and are good reference books to use as you build when you decide to
http://www.boatdesigns.com/Boatbuilders ... fo/12-429/
http://www.boatdesigns.com/Boatbuilding ... fo/12-430/
Don't be afraid to attempt anything. You might surprise your self in the attempt.
http://www.facebook.com/Home.Made.Boat.Building
Bon Voyage-"Wild Flower" 40' house boat being built
14' Mr John-being built
32' Supper Huck-in design

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