120 Volt Connections

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Bill Edmundson
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120 Volt Connections

Postby Bill Edmundson » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:26 am

I starting installing the 120v systems in the Bartender. The connections to the breaker panel are ring connectors. That makes sense. Are these the same crimp & heat shrink connectors that we use on the DC systems?

I've household wiring and I've rewired a few trailers. This is my first AC system in a boat. This seems a simple question. But, I can't seem to find an answer.

Bill
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Mannanj
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby Mannanj » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:56 am

Bill:
I don't see any problems if you're using stranded wire. Just use high quality AMP connectors and a quality crimper, then make the connections as watertight as possible. I would use GFCI recepticals or circuit breakers too. Course you already knew this! :D
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Soloboat
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby Soloboat » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:02 pm

I dont't know either but I imagine since extension cords and most appliance cords are stranded then it has to be OK. Just take off that engineers cap for a while sometimes you guys are your own worst enemy :lol:
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Bill Edmundson
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby Bill Edmundson » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:16 pm

Marine wire is tinned strand. That is not a problem. My question is the end connections.

Bill
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chugalug
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby chugalug » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:46 pm

Get ;How to wire your boat from Glen-l :DUse shrink tubes too.
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby Bill Edmundson » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:51 pm

:) I have Nigel Caulder's book. But, it's 260 miles away right now. I was hoping to pick up some materials tomorrow.

Bill
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chugalug
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby chugalug » Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:08 pm

:D Maybe go on Jamestown site and go on how to's and find what you need.Just a thought. :Djust looking at Blueseas system diagram for ac and dc 3 battery 1 engine yacht system, still can't find what you're looking for.shows wiring and all but not if single strand or wire.have to keep digging.come on -lowka,where's your expertise?
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kens
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby kens » Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:00 pm

the issue you are asking about is aluminum wire vs copper wire.
as long as you maintain copper wire all the way thru you are OK.
The wire and terminals don't know the difference of AC/DC.

But, they do know the difference of aluminum and copper and corrosion.
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby Bill Edmundson » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:44 am

The answer to the question is... Yes.

The same connectors with crimp and heat shrink are good for DC or AC. Most good ones are rated to 600 volts. Thanks to Ray Macke for confirming this.

Bill
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby slug » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:30 pm

Bill; I'm a firm believer in soldering all crimped connections then heat shrinking.

Doug

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aero_dan
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby aero_dan » Fri May 06, 2016 11:35 pm

Hi guys, though not a lot of experience in "boat wiring", I can tell you from 4X4 wiring, Semi wiring, commercial wiring, firetruck wiring, etc, after a soldier jount is made (no crimps cause they all tooo often fail in a short time), then comes the liquid tape. THEN, ... if you think you need to capture water under some coating, you can heat shrink, Remember that liquid tape is thined with MEK, so make sure it is mostly dry before using a lighter to shrink. But the solvent in the liquid tape is the best emulsifier to make an air-tight bond from the insulation to the cinnector end. In external connections, I brush on a second coat after the first is dried a few hours. When I use the liquid tape ($10 at HFT), I have NEVER had a failed joint. So that is my 2-cents worth. To recap, soldier the end, liquid tape, heat shtink ir a wrap of tape.

Cheers all, the goliath is coming along well...
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby raymacke » Sun May 08, 2016 9:18 pm

I am certainly not an expert but just for clarity I am going to add a direct quote form Charile Wing's book "Boatowner's Illustrated Handbook of Wiring" as it sums up much what I have read in numerous sources on the subject. -

"The use of solder in marine connections is controversial. Some experienced electricians feel that soldered connections are the most secure and the best at eliminating terminal corrosion. Others point out that the solder in an overheated joint may melt and allow the conductor to pull out of the terminal. A further problem is wicking of the solder into the stranded conductor, resulting in a rigid portion which is libel to break like a solid conductor.

The ABYC states that solder should not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit, with the exception of battery lugs having solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the conductor diameter."

Again I am no expert just passing on what I have read.
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aero_dan
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby aero_dan » Sun May 08, 2016 10:26 pm

I think that is a diligent observation and has merit. However as you quoted in the opening line, " controversial" is the operative word here. And after reviewing my last input, I probably mis-spoke and did not include crimping prior to soldiering.

I guess if the person doing the work, is building a system that is liable to be running hot, that would warrant additional mechanical connections. But given that the common modern soldiering alloys in general use, melt at 190° to 840°F, and the coating on most marine and automotive wiring applications melts to fluidity at 175°F, I would guess that the master of the boat would have far more pressing issues than the joint as the wires would have lost their insulation almost 20° earlier than the potential failing of a joint. Added to that the possibility of a "cold-soldier joint" which has an extremely high line resistance, and that would be a good reason to go ahead and crimp the joint prior to soldiering. But again, if there is excessive vibration or repeated heating and cooling from any one of a number of poor installation practices, it would add an added level of safety & security to soldier after crimping. That is really all I was saying.

It is understandable to reduce wicking and excessive buildup, etc. It would be, and has been in my shop, the rule of thumb to jump up a wire gauge if there is any possibility that the circuit is going to be subject to uncommon abuse by the operator.

I start to wonder where the "engineering" is NOT monitored by "common sense"... I think we need to look for the relatively "normal" operation and function of a given circuit and not look for the overtly abnormal. I think that if we begin chasing the abnormal, eventually the boat won't float. Sorry for the soap-box rant. But I frequently see threads go off on stray tangents into the "twilight zone" of the unusual, when the simple answer is the fix.

One other thing I might add here, and that is a flux neutralizer. Since flux is an acid that is less corrosive at room temp, the engineering part of me wants to clean any excess flux that could be as reactive as the salt or moisture. And the use of heat shrink is ok, but in the land based EV community, it is common knowledge that you harbor moisture if the joint is open to the weather. Like I previously stated, it has been my experience to use a liberal amount of liquid tape before the heat-shrink if I want to avoid degredation of the joint, no-matter the connection process.

As a side-note of history, the auto industry learned in the early 1900s, to assemble body panels with soldier after spot welding. This was due to some other contributing factors, but relative to this discussion, It was found that the supplimentation of lead soldier added to the lap joint added emencely to the strength and longevity of a given joint. Then things evolved into plastics and glues... but I digress... :lol:

I'll shut up now. I am sure I have thoroughly wore out the subject. :mrgreen:

Cheers all,
Dan
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kens
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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby kens » Mon May 09, 2016 7:22 am

In aircraft industry, the crimping tools are checked with a go-nogo gage often. This is to assure that crimp is not too light nor crimp too much.
A crimp that is too heavy will cause a failure, and a crimp too light will pull out.
In aviation there is a 'pull test'. The pull test actually secures a lug in a fixture and then you apply a pull force to the wire, to the amount correct for the size/gage wire your using/testing.
A heavy crimp will break strands in the terminal lug.
If crimped correctly, the connection is as strong as the wire itself.

Corrosion can happen whether it is crimped or not, soldered or not, therefore corrosion is a non debate here.

I think the real issue is the fact that most auto/marine crimp tooling has no means to VERIFY the correct crimp depth.
If you are big strong hands you may over crimp, if you got small hands you may under crimp.
There is NO means to verify a correct crimping force in the auto industry.
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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Re: 120 Volt Connections

Postby jcallends » Tue May 10, 2016 5:45 am

In addition to the above info most builders will buy crimp connectors from the big box stores, these low cost connectors cover a range of wire sizes indicated by a certain color insulator. To use the smallest wire size indicated is asking for trouble. Better to buy crimp connectors from an electrical parts supplier and get the right size for the wires you are using.


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