Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

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Iggy
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby Iggy » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:41 pm

http://www.westwindhardwood.com is who I used.. and I got them to ship it from BC to Alberta.. a much longer distance that it would be from Surrey, BC to Seattle, WA.

You have to get past customs.. not sure if its a huge obstacle or not, you can call Westwind and ask.

Talk to:
Jan Nielsen
West Wind Hardwood Inc.
jan@westwindhardwood.com
www.westwindhardwood.com
Ph. 800.667.2275 /250.656.0848 Fx. 250.656.9663

I just recently ordered 100 bdft of 4-S-4 Sapele Mahogany and 7/8/1 Sheets of Hydrotek BS1088 Meranti 6/9/19mm Plywood. $1,155 in Plywood + $650 in Lumber + $100 milling (4-S-4) and $300 in shipping. $2,205 total (Canadian.. 1.00 US = 0.952045 CAN).

The material looks like this:
Image

Personally, I'd rather use the stronger Meranti material on the sides & bottom of a larger boat like the Malahini as I am likely to bounce it off a nice Alberta lake rock at one point or another.
Ian (aka Iggy)
My Malahini Build

windancer
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby windancer » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:09 pm

Thanks again. I was just at crosscut the other day and talking with one of the salesmen there about appropriate woods for boatbuilding. He never did mention Meranti. Thanks again for all the helpful info.

windancer
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby windancer » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:13 pm

How does the sapelle and meranti match up? Is the coloration similar our wood you need to stain to make them look like the same wood?

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billy c
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby billy c » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:04 pm

windancer wrote:How does the sapelle and meranti match up? Is the coloration similar our wood you need to stain to make them look like the same wood?

The "mahoganies" can be stained or dyed to compliment each other. Sometimes it is good to tint the color somewhat for accent areas like on the coverboards or kingplank.
Was looking thru the Westwind and Edensaw sites.You have some real decent wood suppliers in your area. Lots of good lumber and marine ply to choose from.
have fun shopping!
-Billy
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

windancer
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby windancer » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:21 pm

I thought that would probably be the way to go. Bye the way - your boat looks amazing. Beautiful job. You must be happy with the way it came out.Congrat's.

windancer
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby windancer » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:25 pm

Is Meranti and Phillapine Mahogany the same thing?

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AaronStJ
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby AaronStJ » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:04 pm

windancer wrote:Is Meranti and Phillapine Mahogany the same thing?

I had thought that was the case, but I just did a bit more research, and it looks like there is actually is a difference. It's actually pretty arbitrary.

This is the Federal Trade Commission guidelines on what can and can not be called Philippine Mahogany:
Federal Trade Commission wrote:In naming or designating the seven non-mahogany Philippine woods Tanguile, Red Lauan, White Lauan, Tiaong, Almon, Mayapis, and Bagtikan, the term "mahogany" may be used but only when prefixed by the word "Philippine" (e.g., "Philippine mahogany table"), due to the long standing usage of that term. Examples of improper use of the term "mahogany" include reference to Red Lauan as "Lauan mahogany" or to White Lauan as "Blond Lauan mahogany". Such woods, however, may be described as "Red Lauan" or "Lauan" or "White Lauan", respectively. The term "Philippine mahogany" will be accepted as a name or designation of the seven woods named above. Such term shall not be applied to any other wood, whether or not grown on the Philippine Islands.

Now, with that in mind, take a look at this Wikipedia page. Assuming it's accurate, it means that any of about a dozen species in the Shorea genus - which fall under only 7 common names - are Philippine Mahogany. There are 11 species of Shorea that are called Dark Red Meranti, and these are not allowed to be called Philippine Mahogany under FTC rules.

However, my personal feeling are that this is somewhat arbitrary. If you're concerned about the "Mahogany-ness" of your Mahogany, you should avoid Meranti and Philippine, anyway. None of the Shorea species are "true" Mahogany, they're only allowed to be called Mahogany "due to the long standing usage of that term." And it's clear from this link that Glen considers the Dark Red Meranti species (not Philippine Mahogany) and the Red Luan species (Philippine Mahogany) to be equivalent.

On the other hand, Khaya and Sapele are at least in the same biological family as "true" mahogany. The term mahongony was originally applied to the species Swietenia mahagoni, a tree in the Meliacae family. It was next applied to Swietenia macrophylla. So orignally, it was only the Swietenia genus that was referred to as Mahogany. Eventually, the whole Meliacae family became known as "the Mahagonies". Khaya and Sapele are both species in separate genera in the Meliacae family.

Ermm... so that's your science lesson for the day. Short version: No, Meranti is not technically Philippine Mahogany. But the term Philippine Mahogany is somewhat arbitrary, and neither Phillipe Mahogany nor Meranti are "true" Mahogany in any case.

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Iggy
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby Iggy » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:22 pm

Here is some research articles you may want to browse:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aucoumea_klaineana (aka "African Mahogany")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorea (aka "Philippine Mahogany")

I was in the same 'boat' as you are (pardon the pun) when I was researching my materials... lots to learn... some vendors calling one thinkg Occume and others Okume and others Oakume... and the same goes for Meranti/Luan/Ect.

What I was ultimately after was:
- Is it strong enough to take the hits I am certainly going to give it over its lifetime.
- Is it rot resistant.
- Is it as defect-free as possible so it is less likely to fail during construction or while my wife and kids are riding along with me. (BS1088 standard)
- Does it look nice if I don't mess up the build.

Personally, I am not quite sure what kind of Shorea is being used for my Meranti. I know its stamped with the BS1088 standard.. I know the grain patters on the sheet I have are very nice.. I know its hard and strong from the way it cuts and the way it bends and how much it weights from carrying it around.

I've seen Okume bright finished and I find it too light colored for my tastes. The Meranti I got is redder and darker in comparison, which is what I am after.

I'd say, its up to your personal tastes. With a fiberglass mesh protective covering, your probably fine with either one. You can get the BS1088 standard for quality on either one.. something I would encourage you to seek out if your a wood rookie like myself and have to order materials being shipped from almost a thousand miles away.
Ian (aka Iggy)
My Malahini Build

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billy c
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby billy c » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:38 pm

they do throw all this stuff in the same bin and call it P mahog. the darker varieties are the ones that are suitable for boat building purposes. the Meranti marine plywood is of the Dark red variety and does look good and hold up well under the proper finish. Go to Lowes or Home Depot and look at the same P mahog sometimes called Luan and you will see the stuff they use for inexpensive door skins which is of a much lighter variety and has little value for boatbuilders. Same for the lumber the darker varieties are what you are looking for if you are shopping this. they will be pretty deep red in color and have good weight. you have to cull thru the piles as some can be pale in color and be light as balsa!
my thoughts are since you are asking this information is to play it SAFE on the lumber and buy Sapelle. Use the marine Meranti plywood or better under the epoxy fiberglass protective finish and you are going to be pleased with your purchase
-Billy
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

windancer
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby windancer » Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:35 pm

I agree with you. Just trying to decide if it's worth spending the extra for the 1088 Okume over the meranti. I figure I can dye the Okume to look more like the Sapelle. Would you use white oak for the frames. I'm concerned about hearing problems with the glues failing on white oak?

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billy c
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby billy c » Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:07 pm

in the end it is a matter of personal preference.
all that you have been looking at is quality boatbuilding material. you are fortunate to live in an area where wooden boats are built and repaired!
i like the grain and figure of the Meranti over the Okume. The sapelle be beautiful. you will have more boards to pick thru for your showy areas coverboards and deck if you go all one species instead of throwing oak into the mix.
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

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kens
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby kens » Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:43 pm

windancer wrote:Hi, I'm getting ready to start building the Malahini and when I went to my local hardwood supplier they informed me that Hondorus Mahogany is pretty much not available and very expensive. They suggested Khar or Sapelle which I believe are both from Africa. Can anyone suggest what might be the best substitution.

After reading this thread, I assume you are looking for a substitute for grain/coloration of Hon Mahog. Either Khaya or Sapelle are good structural substitutes. It would all depend on the coloration of any particular tree. I've seen Spanish Cedar that could knock-off Mahogany, and vice-versa.
I got both Hon Mahogany & Sapelle on my boat, finished natural.
If you look at pics of my boat, the inside wood is Sapelle, and the transom is Honduran Mahogany.
I think the Sapelle is prettier, and yes it is darker, red.
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

windancer
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby windancer » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:17 pm

Do you feel it's worth the extra money for BS1088 vs. Bs 6566? 1088 is about double the price here.

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billy c
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby billy c » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:55 am

here is the link to the Glen-L webletter that addresses your question perfectly! :D
BS6566 vs BS1088
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

dougatl
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Re: Best substitution for Honduras Mahogany

Postby dougatl » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:31 am

I agree that Honduran mahogany can be a bit tricky to find, but it is certainly not a big job, at least in lengths to about 10 ft. Longer may be harder to find. It runs about$9.50 bd/ft retail for 10/4 material here in Atlanta and you can specify that it all be quartersawn.

That said, I agree that there are many good substitutes.
Doug

Making plans to build a runabout.


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