Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

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keith
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Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by keith » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:53 pm

I am sure this will have been asked before, but I couldn't find anything.

When laminating pieces togther, in this case I'm thinking of Keel, Chine & sheers, do you need to use glue powder in the mix, or is it normal to apply straight epoxy. The reason I am unsure is that taking the keel for example, the two pieces will have very recently been through the thicknesser and so will have nice clean flat surfaces that should mate together very closely.

I am not worried about the cost, glue powder is nothing in the big scheme of things, just trying to avoid doing unescessary steps or making things harder for myself.

I am also thinking ahead a little to applying the ply strips. I can see plenty of oportunity for various small voids forming during this process so assume that the cold molding will definitely require glue powder.
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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by slug » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:54 pm

Keith; I'm sure someone else will chip in here, but here's what I do.
This may not apply to all epoxies since I am using MAS epoxy that comes in two consistencies...regular for gluing...low viscosity for encapsulating.
Whichever one I use ( depending on what I have on hand at the time) i always add thickeners, usually a combination of cabosil and wood flour ( out of the belt sander).
I like to see some squeeze out, but on very tight mating surfaces, dont clamp too tight, as epoxy isn't like glue . There has to be some epoxy between the joint to bond the pieces.
Actually you can play with the amounts of flour and cabosil(white) to get a close color match on exposed areas.

Doug

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by Bill Edmundson » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:07 pm

I use micro fibers for glue. Maybe micro ballons for fairing. There are many choices for different purposes.

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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by Trackhappy » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:29 pm

Given the necessity for epoxy to have some thickness between the parts, I'd go with adding thicknesser as the particles will ensure at least some thickness however small. Nowhere in my build so far have I used it clear except for encapsulating.
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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by fredt » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:21 am

I know this thread is a year old, but being a new Monaco builder, and not used to exoxy, am preparing to order the Kit from Glen-l. It shows the quantities somewhere for the Monaco, but in the quantities it doesn' t show any fillers. I bought some west system locally for the frame, chine, sheer and transom laminations, and use a filler for those glue ups.

My question , in gluing the plywood bottom and side laminations , is the poxy shield used here and which filler should be ordered with the kit?

I searched the site and can't seem to find my answer.

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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by polarisman14 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:30 am

My plan is to use Poxy-Grip for all the laminations and structural members and Poxy-Shield for encapsulating only. If I run out of Poxy-Grip then I can mix Poxy-Shield with wood flour from the belt sander for a thicker mixture, but Poxy-Grip is thickened epoxy made for structural gluing in the first place so it should be good to go.

Anyone please feel free to correct me on this.

Matt

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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by fredt » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:28 am

Thanks Matt, Glen L sends a gallon of the poly grip in the initial kit it looks like, so I am guessing it may not be enough. Apprciate the help here.

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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by Lowka53 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:50 am

fredt wrote:I know this thread is a year old, but being a new Monaco builder, and not used to exoxy, am preparing to order the Kit from Glen-l. It shows the quantities somewhere for the Monaco, but in the quantities it doesn' t show any fillers. I bought some west system locally for the frame, chine, sheer and transom laminations, and use a filler for those glue ups.

My question , in gluing the plywood bottom and side laminations , is the poxy shield used here and which filler should be ordered with the kit?

I searched the site and can't seem to find my answer.
glen-l sell fillers separately https://www.boatdesigns.com/Fillers/products/282/ either epoxy grip or shield can be used with shield you will need to thicken it up with fillers. these two products can be used with each other but not mixed together. same goes for there hardeners.http://www.glen-l.com/supplies/epoxyindex.html
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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by polarisman14 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:09 pm

Fred, I'm looking at the fiberglass kit for the Monaco at http://www.boatdesigns.com/Monaco-Fiber ... fo/71-716/ and it only says you get (3) 1.2 Gallon kits of Poxy-Shield, but no Poxy-Grip. Unless you're referencing a kit I haven't seen available for this, you'll have to buy the Poxy-Grip separate from the fiberglass kit. The Fiberglass kit is just the resin, hardener, cloth, and a small variety of application tools to encapsulate the bottom and sides, and transom of the hull, south of the decking.

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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by Lowka53 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:56 pm

polarisman14 wrote:Fred, I'm looking at the fiberglass kit for the Monaco at http://www.boatdesigns.com/Monaco-Fiber ... fo/71-716/ and it only says you get (3) 1.2 Gallon kits of Poxy-Shield, but no Poxy-Grip. Unless you're referencing a kit I haven't seen available for this, you'll have to buy the Poxy-Grip separate from the fiberglass kit. The Fiberglass kit is just the resin, hardener, cloth, and a small variety of application tools to encapsulate the bottom and sides, and transom of the hull, south of the decking.
you can use only poxy shield but you will have to thicken it with another product but I did use some with out thickening with good results. the easiest thickener is wood floor and you can get it from your sander I also screened saw dust from my table saw and go a pretty good amount that way. figure on using more epoxy than the kit always you seem to find all kinds of uses for the stuff :lol: :lol:
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fredt
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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by fredt » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:58 pm

Thanks, yep I screwed up. I had done a quick takeoff the other day before I saw the Monaco material list you refered me to. On my take off I added a gallon of poxy grip, and in my old mind that became what came in the kit! That is what started my question about how much poxy grip to use, cause a gallon of this glue didn't seem enough.

And now based on the good tip of adding wood flour to the mix for glueing, I may just get the poxy shield kit and fiberglass stuff. I purchased a respirator today because my old lungs can't handle the dust of fairing and sanding anymore, so sorting flour out of my table saw and other machines may not kill me.

Thanks all, poxy shield and wood flour, or silica if needed for the plywood laminations.

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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by Lowka53 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:31 pm

:roll: epoxy in its self is pretty toxic so always protect clothing and respirator mask when using it. and if sanding it as well :wink:
Don't be afraid to attempt anything. You might surprise your self in the attempt.
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fredt
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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by fredt » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:06 pm

Thanks for the advise. I used to work in lumberyards, back when they were lumberyards. In our mill we cut everything, including asbestos board and shingles. Even OSHA wasn't up to speed then. Over the years I have had bad habits in my own workshop, and never think about it til later. I have been lucky, so far. Now, I am going to read warning labels, and attempt to be much more careful during this build , and other projects. Like to have time to enjoy the rest of the ride.

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pauloman
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Re: Do you need to use glue powder when laminating

Post by pauloman » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:11 am

the key issue with epoxy gluing is not to clamp too tightly and squeeze out all the epoxy. And you want the epoxy thick enough not to drain out. Tricks include gouging the mating surfaces and adding coarse ground walnut shell to the epoxy so you cannot squeeze it completely shut and drive out all the epoxy

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