"cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Fiberglassing over plywood and one-off fiberglass methods. See: "Boatbuilding Methods", in the left-hand column of the Home page.

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jasonhorwath
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"cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby jasonhorwath » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:25 pm

I decided to glass over my teak/holly and mahogany deck, and now there seems to be some cloudy areas in it. It almost looks like some areas did not saturate as well as others, even though I worked it thoroughly, and I know it's well adhered to the deck. Is there any remedies? What might have I done wrong?
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Oyster
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby Oyster » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:50 pm

The top photo looks like the glass needs more resin as the webbing is showing. The bottom looks like there was something that soiled the wood and did not get sanded or cleaned or even wiped off if the white is under the glass. What did you clean the wood with and what was the procedure before glassing?

jasonhorwath
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby jasonhorwath » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:08 pm

It does look like it did not get enough resin, but I know that isn't the case since I noticed it as I was doing it and literally poured more directly on those areas and rolled it out.

Before applying the glass, I epoxied the deck and allowed it to cure completely. It looked fantastic! I then cleaned it with water and ammonia and allowed that to dry. I'm sure I screwed up somewhere, but I'll be damned if I know where.

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go
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby go » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:19 am

Difficult to say...

I think it´s not a common knowledge that fiberglass
can´t be stored forever, usually it is fine for a couple of years.
Is it an old stock? Or has it been a subject to moisture?
Just my 2 cents...

Ing.
My ship came in but I was at the airport

Ingólfur Hreiðarsson
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jasonhorwath
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby jasonhorwath » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:38 am

That could be possible, I suppose. Had it for about a year or so, and who knows how long it was in stock before that. Live and learn. Looks good from about 10 feet away. I'll just have to travel with some velvet ropes!

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Cranky Badger
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby Cranky Badger » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:35 am

go wrote:Difficult to say...

I think it´s not a common knowledge that fiberglass
can´t be stored forever, usually it is fine for a couple of years.
Is it an old stock? Or has it been a subject to moisture?
Just my 2 cents...

Ing.


Just to politely clarify, styrene based resins can't be stored long-term because the styrene evaporates. More styrene can always be added and it'll kick off, but I don't know if it affects the strength of the layup.

Epoxy resins can be stored indefinitely. I had some that I used after 5 years of storage. The hardener had darkened a bit, but it still behaved normally. The hardener (which is more reactive than the resin to begin with) darkened a bit but still worked fine. If I do need to store epoxy again, I'll transfer the hardener into a glass jar. I had bought it from work so it was in a plastic Tropicana OJ jug rather than a factory bottle and the hardener softened the bottom of it. I assume the (polypropylene) containers they package in would be fine as well.

Teak is oily enough that it needs a solvent wipe to take off the surface oils so the resin can 'stick'. Acetone works great because it evaporates quickly without leaving a residue.

Jason, does it look like it could be tiny air bubbles (almost too small to see individually) ? Sometimes if I use a paint roller, I get air trapped in the resin and it looks milky. I mainly use a thin resin and slow hardener so it seems to work its way out -a thicker resin might trap it though. Otherwise, yeah it looks like it's not bonded to the wood there. If thats the case, there's only way (I know of) to fix it....

That's to sand that area down to the wood and redo it. If you avoid any sharp lines, the fix will be tough to spot, even with a bright finish.
-Brian

"Do or do not. There is no try."
- Yoda

jasonhorwath
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby jasonhorwath » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:50 am

Thanks Brian,

I've determined that the clear areas are the places that we poured on the epoxy to roll it out. For whatever reason, the glass did not absorb it as well everywhere else. I worked the whole thing like mad, and even squeegeed it after the roller. I'm fairly certain that it's bonded. It just looks like very small areas of the weave wouldn't saturate.

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kens
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby kens » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:45 pm

I have noticed that the glass cloth can 'float' up on top of liquid resin. Is it possible that you had enough resin in that area that the glass floated up?
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

jasonhorwath
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby jasonhorwath » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:45 pm

possible I suppose. though I would think that I would ( or should ) notice that. Wouldn't you be able to feel a wave in the surface after it cured if that was the case?

osomxl
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby osomxl » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:53 pm

jasonhorwath wrote:possible I suppose. though I would think that I would ( or should ) notice that. Wouldn't you be able to feel a wave in the surface after it cured if that was the case?


No not exactly! Fiberglass cloth has a tendency to float to the surface of the resin.

Has anyone used regular Polyester resin such as used in surfboards?

When laying the cloth on a surfboard we use a "laminating resin" which stays tacky and can be used in between layers of cloth and or before the final "waxed resin" is applied which cures to a hard finish.

I dont know the exact compatability between the two; i.e. epoxy vs. polyester resins, but have noticed no ill effects on repaired surfboards. This could be a possible solution to the endless hours of sanding and filling to eliminate the cloth from showing.

The process would follow like this;

Step 1: Polyester laminating resin spread on work surface evenly

Step 2: after curing but still tacky( as the laminating resin does not fully harden) lay the cloth out on the surface to be covered

Step 3: a liberal coat of waxed resin which will catalyze and fully harden but will fill the weave of the cloth and sit on top of the cloth due to the fact that the cloth is stuck to the laminating resin and will not rise to the top

Step 4: top coat with epoxy? After curing sand the whole thing smooth starting with 120 grit and working your way to 600 to 800 grit and polish with a high quality polishing compound!

I have done major glass repairs to numerous surfboards and this always seems to work for me. I dont however know about the compatability of Epoxy on Polyester resin.

Oyster
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby Oyster » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:49 am

Epoxy in the green stage bonds fine in multiple recoating without sanding or additional work. The working times between coats are key and ambient temperatures in some cases will modify this. Make sure you educate yourself in this area which can be done by most sellers of epoxy, even with tech support in most cases from the makers or sellers.

I would never even use the approach of blending the two types of resins, and never suggest substituting polyester for the epoxy. By all means polyester has worked in numerous work boat hulls for coating in most cases, and also because of the costs differences too. So buyer beware, but most of the plans on this site suggest epoxy for good reasons, longivity and bonding if your build incorporates a resin in its build. There are indeed some that are core materials and polyester and the more preferred resins such as Vinylester resins are indeed fine such as the surfboards using foam cores.

Denon Osterman
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby Denon Osterman » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:09 pm

The two things that come to mind for me are a) not enogh resin b)the resin that you threw on as you noticed some areas were lacking was already past pot life, and for that reason did not wet out the cloth as well.

if its the first one(and no matter how much epoxy was there the first time, its probably always good practice to put on a covering coat after the first has dried...that way, no matter what the cloth did while the application coat was drying, you have a hard surface to apply smooth epoxy(like your deck, beforehand) then the obvious fix is to add another coat(and then sand, and varnish, and sand, and varnish, and sand, and varnish, etc)...if it was the second, depending on how far past the pot life it was, the aforementioned "cure" might work, or you might need to redo :cry:

of course, it might be something else...just my 0.02$. when i did my TNT, i used a LOT of resin on the first coat, waited for it to dry completly, used a LOT on the second coat, and still needed a smaller final third coat to get it nice and totally glass clear again.

Denon

jasonhorwath
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby jasonhorwath » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:44 am

thanks again all! Our little squirt will be ready for the water by this Saturday. I resigned myself to it becoming a good 20/20 boat ( looks great from 20' away, going 20mph ), and will enjoy it for it's intended purpose. The great advise received from all of you will certainly go towards the next boat. Have my eye on a Devlin design called the Dipper.

-Jason

upspirate

Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby upspirate » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:02 am

Be sure to post pics in launchings when you get it wet!! :wink:

wwamann
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Re: "cloudy" areas in the epoxy

Postby wwamann » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:35 am

jasonhorwath wrote:I then cleaned it with water and ammonia and allowed that to dry.


Isn't ammonia and amine related chemicals ?

I've seen articles on both amine blush and ammonia blush as it applies to fiberglassing.

I've read that, in some instances, to remove amine blush you can use an ammonia and water solution and then sand the surface.

But you always rinse thoroughly with clean water. :|

Waren


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