question on scooter boat build

Steel and aluminum boatbuilding. See: "Boatbuilding Methods", in left-hand column of the Home page, for information about alloys.

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twaite
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question on scooter boat build

Postby twaite » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:18 pm

:mrgreen:
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby twaite » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:40 pm

:lol:
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Ronb172
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby Ronb172 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:18 pm

Not too many folks on this site build with aluminum. The likely reason there is no response is because not too many people can help you. I sure can't
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby Lowka53 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:21 pm

:? also you are asking about aluminum build sizes when it is a wood boat design when you change things like that you get to a point you are on your own we would not have any clue on how to answer your question so better not to pretend we know the answer we pride ourselves in giving good information here. not guessing :wink:
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby Kevin Morin » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:17 pm

twaite,
We can discuss this build in welded aluminum. I respect the Witt and Hankinsen design books quite a bit so I'm not willing to hi-jack the design- I'll take it that you've already bought the plans? Please confirm.

Next, you mention welding and fab experience but you don't mention aluminum welding MIG or TIG, could you give a rundown on those items? If you've welded aluminum then would you post some weld images and give (power supply, model and ALL settings, wire/filler alloy, base metal alloys, thickness, weld position, weld prep) the details? Lots of guys will posts- "I welded this how is it?" Not really enough to get much feedback, then the welds are ignored because there's no way to discuss them.

Ideally you'd show us a MIG bead on an outside corner in 1/8" material (5052 is fine) with 0.035" 5356 wire and both a (pushed) drag type bead and a patterned bead (like whipping 5P rod) and the back would have decent fusion, the welds would show cleaning and prep and balance of the bead size?

The next item is we'll have to be looking at the design so check with the site/Moderators/WebMaster/ (whoever can guide you) to discuss "how much of what" they don't mind having online, and how much we need to just discuss in words. Essentially you'll have to make aluminum substitutions for each hull surface and then support then, but since metal is available in vastly different sizes when compared to wood, you can do some shearing and press forming to get entire frame elements that might be composite of several pieces in wood.

In the shortest term I'd suggest you find out how long the shears and presses are in your near neighborhood and what sizes of sheet/plate can be delivered by your local metal supplier? IF the lines of the Scooter are parallel it may be possible to get the tunnel and bottom, perhaps even the sides from one piece, and then other frame elements from other sheared and press formed pieces?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby twaite » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:30 am

:o
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby twaite » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:45 am

:?:
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby twaite » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:39 am

:oops:
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby twaite » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:40 am

:oops:
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby twaite » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:09 am

:arrow:
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby twaite » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:25 am

:x
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby Bill Edmundson » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:32 am

twaite

I don't do aluminum. I don't have the experience to tell you one way or another. A build is a significant expense and your safety is an issue. Things that I might do, I can't recommend to you. I'm just not qualified. Good luck.

Bill
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby Kevin Morin » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:49 am

twaite,
the 5086 is much higher performer than 5052 and the longer you got the higher this difference shows up....BUTTT; the bend radius must be about 4T or four times the thickness not a single shot, with knife edges like steel unless the nose bar and dies are planned for the alloy or the lower die is urethane. The method used by shops with only steel die sets is to triple or "four shot" the bends where the 90 is formed by bending three or four bends very close to one another.

So if the forming shop will not tool for the 5086(?) then I agree it will stress crack in a too tight, single shot 90 pressing.

5052 was all that existed when welded aluminum boats began in the last century so it will work, but has a much lower yield so 5086 is much more durable for your bottom banging description but which ever you choose, I think it will be fine- its less expensive but preforms less too. By that I mean the boat will be durable, take lots groundings, skim over shoals and scrape a bit without any damage to the hull- but would be more bullet proof with the 5086 over the 5052.

A note: the all up weight will be lower in most cases than a wood and glass version so the impact resistance will be higher for any given area of impact, speed of travel and angle of incidence.

Sounds like you've got the welding issues in hand and I agree that a push/drag type bead using 5356 (regardless of which 50series alloy you decide to use) is the best practice.

First step, in my thinking- is to decide how much bending and how much welding of the tunnel (bottom) surface of the hull? To do that I'd ask are the sides of the tunnel parallel? The section drawing seems to show some taper? That would make bending the entire bottom less effective but still leave you able to bend the two outer hull ama's even if the chines are not parallel?

Next is to decide which scantlings will be used? (Scantlings is the term, for any readers not familiar, that describes the group of dimensions of materials in a boat; thicknesses, depths, frequency of framing and longitudinals and so on.) One of the biggest decisions is the bottom thickness and this will be a big contribution to wt and cost. 1/8" will work but require tighter framing, 3/16" will work too and require less framing. We regularly have 0.160" or 5/32" material available too, but since I only work in 5086 I'm not sure its availability in 5052?

Once the main decisions about forming and thickness are agreed/made then the interior framing can be planned and last the deck framing. Interestingly enough 1/8" decks are fine, that is you can build them and they'll hold people fine- but they do flex when you walk on them if you don't frame pretty close together. I'm not saying the flexing will 'hurt' but who wants to walk on a deck that 'oil cans'? But to stiffen a thin deck build its not uncommon to use wider deck framing material AND to frame those deck beams closer together- resulting in an increase in framing that may be more labor and more cost of extruded or sheared and pressed materials than a slightly thicker original plate material.

I've built skiffs that had 1/8" bottoms and 0.160" decks! (sounds odd but that deck framing can take time and cost more than the other few thousandths inch of plate. 0.125" was adequate for the uniform loading of water of the bottom and the other thicker material was used to carry a group of 200lb adult men with less framing labor or lengths of angle for those frames.

hope these reasons seem logical as a place to begin the conversation to convert your plans to welded aluminum?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby twaite » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:53 am

:x
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Postby twaite » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:23 am

:x
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