question on scooter boat build

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twaite
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by twaite » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:45 am

Do you have access to 20' sheets AND a 20 bed brake?
OR
Will the hull sheets be in 12' lengths (12' and 20' sheets and brake beds are the only ones I've actually seen)
If there are other circumstances with your hull I'd need to know that in clearly stated " I will buy X' length sheets and bend them in an Y' Length brake."

Sheet Size: I will buy 20' sheets: Hull and tunnel sections.. the remainder of the framing and decking will come as standard stock 48x96 as I am very limited to sizes here.

Press brake: I was shocked when I received the quote for the press brake work ($2,500 so that will not fit my budget. I will have panels sheared to approximate measurements and I will cut to exact shape and weld chine seams throughout) I could pay someone less than that to weld the whole thing... :shock:

Now I need some fixed numbers; exact figures- no maybe's- please!

Aluminum: Using 1/8 5052 H32
LOA: 20'x8' max ( I am limited on sheet stock)



Trailer regs: Total length: 60 feet (excluding bumpers); trailer length: 40 feet (excluding bumpers); motor home length: 45 feet (excluding mirrors and bumpers); width: 8 feet 6 inches; height: 13 feet 6 inches
Capt. Travis

Kevin Morin
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Location: Kenai, Alaska

Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by Kevin Morin » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:21 am

Travis, thanks that's good to understand. I'll draw in the 20' class but I'd like to know; will we plan for 4' wide or 5' wide 20' long sheets of 1/8" 5052?

As to forming, not a problem I do understand that shop costs are not cheap. But... .I'd prefer that you plan to cut the sheets all yourself, and not have them Sheared Rough then cut with a saw. Just layout and cut them with a saw to their final sizes/shapes from the full size sheet and forget spending any on the shear. ITs just manhours/time of effort on your part and saves the shop costs.

Since the (my sketches) design was originally based on some press brake work on the longs to flange them into L's or angles- and we're not doing that work now- I'd like to stress that the weld beads where you add these short flanges to the framing elements and deck beams will need to be very proportional to the metal- that is 1/8" of metal welded to 1/8" of metal needs to be done with a 3/16" wide weld and not bigger to avoid distortion and warping.

so this is a caution to get our your MIG gun and begin some practice stitches about 2" long that are narrow and in proportion to these many 'stitches' that will be needed to add flanges to the longs and xverse framing pieces in the design.

I'll get some lines roughed in and see what you think of the modified Scooter design? Thanks for the details, I'll take those into account as I draw.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Kevin Morin

twaite
Posts: 129
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by twaite » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:49 am

[quote="Kevin Morin"]Travis, thanks that's good to understand. I'll draw in the 20' class but I'd like to know; will we plan for 4' wide or 5' wide 20' long sheets of 1/8" 5052?

Thanks to you for all your time in this as it is invaluable....

Cutting: No Problem I couldn't agree more than to but the money in the boat can buy a lot of cutting tools for what they want to cut... I can get up to 8' wide in 20' sheets (will have to freight in though) I can get 12' locally and 4'x8' are readily available... 8'x20' runs about $650 per sheet plus shipping
Since the (my sketches) design was originally based on some press brake work on the longs to flange them into L's or angles- and we're not doing that work now- I'd like to stress that the weld beads where you add these short flanges to the framing elements and deck beams will need to be very proportional to the metal- that is 1/8" of metal welded to 1/8" of metal needs to be done with a 3/16" wide weld and not bigger to avoid distortion and warping.

Yes sir, turn up the heat and boogie understood... will do.. I would think with proper prep work it should not be an issue.. I have a good planner for beveling edges and plenty of back gouging bits.


I'll get some lines roughed in and see what you think of the modified Scooter design? Thanks for the details, I'll take those into account as I draw.

Looking forward to it...

Regards,
Capt. Travis

twaite
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by twaite » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:25 am

Kevin,

Ok I again found out 20' sheets are to iffy to count on here... its like one day its yes next day no so I am giving up on that. 12' materials are doable and available here so I guess that's were I am at... starting to stress over this aspect so it is what it is 20' sheets are out.. sorry

regards,
Capt. Travis

Kevin Morin
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by Kevin Morin » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:26 am

Travis, the sheet lengths being 12' instead of 20' just means a little more work for you, will you be able to confirm sizes ? widths 48", 60" or 72" ??

Have you considered buying from a remote location and paying your own shipping costs? That allows the order to be from a larger volume supplier who is able to offer more sizes, roll/coil sheet sizes and a wider variety of other materials as well?

Also, some of the larger vendors have 20' bed brakes and could perhaps quote on that work too? Not sure the price point of where you're willing to have the shear and brake work done- but with so many trucks traveling half empty today's highways- I'm just curious if you'd explored vendors in other areas that may be more competitive?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Kevin Morin

twaite
Posts: 129
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by twaite » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:11 pm

This is the closest I have found... they are local (1 hour drive and very reasonable without the million dollar company attitude meaning if the economy is good there not interested in the little guy if its bad they will jump on a $100 order... sorry that's my vent...)

Available in stock:
5052 H32
5 Sheets of the .190 X 60 X 144
13 sheets of the .125 X 60 X 192
Plenty of: 48x96 and 48x120
They also have any size flat bar I would ever need and it is 5086


The shipping is a joke due to length/width.... I priced out the materials just for the hull for the prior drawing and it was over $7,000 with labor for press braking... that is way out of site for my budget.... a little more work never hurt me... lol this isn't meant for ocean cruises its for driving around a 5,000 acre island mostly protected waters 4" - 5' depth ...

Also with not being able to see test bends it concerns me because once its paid for its mine so if it shows up a mess I will have to cut it up and weld it anyway... :roll: I can buy a lot of wire, gas and flat bar for $3,000 just my 2 cents....
Capt. Travis

twaite
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by twaite » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:44 pm

Well we passed the 8000 hits today on this thread, I would assume there is a lot of interest in this build... thanks for all the interest... stay tuned I bet there will be many more built...
Capt. Travis

twaite
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by twaite » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:46 pm

Kevin,

Just wanted to check in with you to see how it was going hope all is well..
Capt. Travis

Kevin Morin
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by Kevin Morin » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:33 pm

Travis, there is an online axiom, perhaps it applies to other projects as well? it does seem to me that "when you begin to work on a thread, that takes a few minutes time- then your personal schedule blows up" and time becomes a premium? Wonder if you could plan for those business events by taking on online threads when business got slow?

Anyway, I'm about to post some preliminary images but not before remarking that new builders often think images (screen ware) is the same a plans!!! not the same. So, just because you see pictures that doesn't mean there are plans of the boat yet.

The design cycle (or Helix) goes around the decisions needed a few times and then gets narrower, smaller and tighter circles each time it goes up a layer. So we've done some of the basics as you've selected the basic design, its drawn as a proportional version of 20'LOA x 8' BOA and about 14-15" deep with about the same bottom proportions.

So far it only weighs 800 lb but I don't have the framing in yet. The stability is very good and the decks will be shown flat to begin, since I'm not drawing the curvature or camber until we agree this is the design we're headed to build? This fore deck is 8" above the sheer/main deck to give not only a huge locker forward, but to give a raised platform for whatever purpose. The difference in a 4" and an 8" raised deck is one 4" flat bar worth of metal around that coaming which raised the deck. The hatch covers can be very large and supported by draining coaming to dry off this storage.

So, while I will be posting images, they're not plans- and they are a stretched version of the Scooter and just a little wider but not equally scaled up. The waterline length is about 18' long the water plane is about 83' ft^2 so one inch of immersion is close to 400lb per inch. That means a couple full sized guys will drop/sink/immerse her another inch. Engine and all she looks like (with this bottom proportion) she will draw 3.5" or so at rest.

Need the fuel volume confirmed, so I can put together a wt/bal. sheet for trim.

If I understand the thinking now? there will be a raised frame of pipe/tube amidships and this will hold the gas tank under, above deck but below a 2nd deck? and there will be both a console with forward frame for cooler And a leaning post? I"d need to know the size/design/wt of materials in these to balance the boat.

So, images coming, plans in the future.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK

I
Kevin Morin

Kevin Morin
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by Kevin Morin » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:24 pm

Travis, when you view images online there are some factors to the view- first not all curves are completely smooth due to the resolution of the CAD software- where super smooth is super slow by compared to 'sort of smooth' is very fast. I'm not curious what a boat that has only three related curves looks like in high def.... but time requires I draw with the curves turned on to 'so - so' not super fine.

The next thing is that in preliminary models there are often small areas of extra surfaces, there's one here in deck surface just behind the foredeck bulkhead, just a vestige of the drawing process to be ignored until i clean it up in the model.

Dimensions are all rounded, right now they're in 1/64ths or smaller and not all rounded as shown. Colors are to show sides of the boat or different panels. Some are not all correctly colored, just a draft of the shape.

Image
Bow or Body Plan outside with surfaces solid

Image
Outboard Profile View

Image
Plan View of the top deck and foredeck. Dim.s rounded

Image

couple 3D views to give the other three images some context.

Main items for your agreement; #1 overall dimensions #2 ht of raised deck to 8" # 3 draft figures given rough, tunnel could be narrowed up, draft would go upward (become less deep or more lb. to immerse one inch) but I generally moved the proportions upward by about 1.26x however then had to trim back slightly in bottom dimensions not to end too wide.

Looking at the 1/8" aluminum deck, I'd say it was worth your time (fab and framing time) to consider 5/32" or 0.160" thick deck plate- the reason is the areas to be framed will be smaller for a stiffer deck- but 1/8" will work- just more framing and keyhole/pocket/socket welding in the deck to the framing. Not much wt increase from adding 0.035" of metal from 0.125 up to 0.160 but... quite a bit of deck stiffness. Working on the framing and decks so that's why the question.

"Speak now, of forever hold your comments". Please look it over and see if you can answer questions here and previous post?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Kevin Morin

twaite
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by twaite » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:41 pm

Kevin,

First I wanted you to know how much your time is valued from my perspective, second I am in no means rushing anything and sorry if I implied to be.. I fully understand you are offering your time and it is most appreciated... :D



Main items for your agreement;

#1 overall dimensions: I agree with posted LOA and BOA (looks great)

#2 ht of raised deck to 8": agreed and is a great idea

# 3 draft: draft is very acceptable

figures given rough, tunnel could be narrowed up, draft would go upward (become less deep or more lb. to immerse one inch) but I generally moved the proportions upward by about 1.26x however then had to trim back slightly in bottom dimensions not to end too wide.

I like the look

Looking at the 1/8" aluminum deck, I'd say it was worth your time (fab and framing time) to consider 5/32" or 0.160" thick deck plate- the reason is the areas to be framed will be smaller for a stiffer deck- but 1/8" will work- just more framing and keyhole/pocket/socket welding in the deck to the framing. Not much wt increase from adding 0.035" of metal from 0.125 up to 0.160 but... quite a bit of deck stiffness. Working on the framing and decks so that's why the question.

I have access to 5 3/16 5'x12' sheets


Fuel: 25 gal

I will work on add on weights, air motor, console, coolers ect.
Capt. Travis

Kevin Morin
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by Kevin Morin » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:07 pm

Travis, didn't think you were rushing me, just concerned you weren't seeing sketches and believing they were plans.

Looking forward to wt. figures for deck loads. Still need to confirm on deck hatches- recessed into hulls. First- with huge bow locker will there still be deck hatches? Next if so, from previous layout? And depth becomes the main issue - they're expensive not for area but for depth so they should be the deepest then can be without removing all the structural elements under then. If that happens they're more of a framed 'well' on bottom to deck can be done but we'll need to look closely at the bottom thickness at that point vs the areas of the lockers.

Going around their 'bush' at this time, could used confirm about lockers/recesses/deck stanchions for 2nd deck, we can rely on your previous drawing/sketch but you can rework it with these dim.s too?

25gal gas will run 155-170 depends on octane and tank. What is needed next is for you to confirm the deck furniture and plan, and we'll add all the wt.s and balance. The raised deck locker forward, with the deck under it, and hatch covers will make stowing a good volume all the way at the bow, very easy. So trimming her down by the bow can be done with just "beer, briquettes and brisket."

I'll do some question sketches for the sheer. The reason is to consider how the edges of the deck will build, and that will influence the framing too.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Kevin Morin

twaite
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:38 am

Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by twaite » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:38 pm

Looking forward to wt. figures for deck loads. Still need to confirm on

deck hatches- recessed into hulls. First- with huge bow locker will there still be deck hatches?

I feel that with the size of the forward lockers, that will be sufficient for storage. I will have plenty with coolers, console ect. The only others I can think of would be inspection for bilge areas.


Going around their 'bush' at this time, could used confirm about lockers/recesses/deck stanchions for 2nd deck, we can rely on your previous drawing/sketch but you can rework it with these dim.s too?

25gal gas will run 155-170 depends on octane and tank. What is needed next is for you to confirm the deck furniture and plan

How about the previous post on arrangement ( not to scale but is a good idea of how I see it) what's your thoughts

So trimming her down by the bow can be done with just "beer, briquettes and brisket." :D :D :D :D

I'll do some question sketches for the sheer. The reason is to consider how the edges of the deck will build, and that will influence the framing too.
Would it make since to leave a lip (so to say) and cap it with split pipe as a gunnel cap. just a thought.
Capt. Travis

twaite
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by twaite » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:14 pm

Kevin,

These numbers are not exact but I feel like they are close...

Raised deck for console: 60-70#

Lean post: 45#

Front cooler/seat with rack: 28#

Rear cooler with rack: 20#

Air motor/prop and stand : 105 (bow mount)
Capt. Travis

Kevin Morin
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:36 am
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Re: question on scooter boat build

Post by Kevin Morin » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:23 pm

Travis, good list, thanks. Sorry to be regional- what in the world is an "air motor"? is this an airboat? or an outboard jon boat with no topsides?

Help educate an old northerner. I did build an airboat once but it had a 460 Ford and a big ole' prop stuck up on a tower! scared me near to heart failure but turned out the designer knew exactly what he was doing- scaring his builder for fun.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Kevin Morin

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