Lincoln MP 210 with a spool gun

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Joeyak49
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Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:15 pm
Location: Anchorage Ak

Lincoln MP 210 with a spool gun

Post by Joeyak49 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:10 pm

Is the new Lincoln MP 210 with a spool gun to use to weld a boat :D

Kevin Morin
Posts: 699
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Re: Lincoln MP 210 with a spool gun

Post by Kevin Morin » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:31 pm

Joeyak49,
I'm not sure of the thickest material in the Snake shooter? The method to resolve your answer is to find the plans, or study plans, and look up the thickest material- then you can estimate if the power supply will weld that thickness.

For example, some boats of the 20' class (LOA) could have a 1/2 thick keel and 1/4" bottom plates/panels? I'm not saying the Snake Shooter does or does not... have these thicknesses.... but the reason to mention them is to give an example. The welds of a 1/4" to 1/2" will require 23-24 Volts and 240 or higher amps. So, if the design required this thickness material, and I don't know if it does(?), THEN the 210 seems too small a power supply to do that job.

On the other hand, say the boat has only thinner material- max of 0.187" or 3/16" ; then a 200 Amp welder may be adequate for those welds.

I'd go to the Lincoln spec page and look at their recommendations for capacity, they will usually be fairly conservative in rating a power supply so the online figures should help you decide.

There are some other articles on MIG for aluminum here, so the search function can help you explore more background information if you're planning to build in welded aluminum?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Kevin Morin

crowsridge
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:46 pm
Location: Eugene, Oregon

Re: Lincoln MP 210 with a spool gun

Post by crowsridge » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:01 pm

Joeyak, I just bought the Miller 211 with the 150 Spoolmate. I got it rather than the Lincoln because it had (IMO) less to go wrong with it. IE the digital controls. I had never mig welded aluminum before and barely played with my Lincoln tig before 6 weeks ago.

I am pretty comfortable with my welds now. I have tried to break them, cut them apart to check for penetration etc. and very happy with the results. Now, I am still considering have someone else do the pretty welds that will show on the outside if I don't have acceptable results by the time I get there. With my practicing, I'm feeling pretty good that I can do it all.

The 211 says don't weld less than 1/8th if I remeber right and good to 3/8" aluminum. Its not easy to find the 150 Spoolmate in stock, but its worth the wait. The 150 will do the wire that is suitable for long term salt water exposure. Sorry, I dont know enough to be exact. I rely on Airgas to get what I need for the job. I have to say they have taken care of me so far.

I am turning my 23' open style guide boat into a pilot house version. North River just came out with a 23' version of their Seahawk OS that is similar to what I'm doing. Although, I'm forgoing the cuddy, sliding the cockpit forward. The NR can seat 4 and has 5' of fish deck. I can seat 8 and have 8' of fish deck.


Good luck with your build.

Chris

Kevin Morin
Posts: 699
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Re: Lincoln MP 210 with a spool gun

Post by Kevin Morin » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:08 pm

Chris, Joey the main issue with welding an aluminum boat, the first few times, is the issue of bead proportionality. What gets most new welders into the most problems in their build is distortion(s) because a weld that is in scale to the metal being welded, is more work by a long way to than wider, slower, bigger welds.

Most often newer welders create beads that are too large for the weld joint being welded, not that those with more hours in the trade don't do this too- but it's very common on first boats to see distortion and over sized welds. Aluminum boats' primary seams; keels, chines; sheer and most bulkheads (if there are any full size bulkheads?) are all welded both inside and outside and only rarely would some portion of one of these critical hull seams be single sided.

This means the weld could be 1.1 or 10% larger than the parent metal on one side and the same on the other side and end up being 2.2 times the cross section of the metal being held together!!! Not needed really. A total weld section of 1.1 times the total thickness is plenty- adding both sides together!

Let's take a quick look at the metal being joined. If a 3/16" or 0.187" thick piece of plate (5086 alloy) has a given strength to resist an impact (say a bullet shot at 90degs to the surface) or tear resistance when hit on a rock as part of the hull: that strength of the original metal's properties are not increased by welding. So a big wide, heavy and outsized weld will not make the joint any stronger than one that is proportionally scaled to the size of the metal being welded.

All aluminum welding does weaken the metal somewhat and very close to the weld zone is the Heat Affected Zone, or HAZ. And at the edge of this strip, along weld in aluminum alloy, is the weakest place in the joint. So... making a big wide, thick and hot weld is not stronger than making a smaller, uniform and faster deposited weld. The weld, is not the weak link in most joints... but it sure can make a boat look poorly if the welds aren't in proportion!

(The) faster, narrower, more uniform and proportional welds take more practice and skill to put down consistently. This is what newer welders should strive to learn; beads that are proportional to the metal being welded. When experienced welders suggest a 100 hours welding before welding on a boat- 95% of the people I've recommended that too have told me -take a hike old man.... I'm doing fine. And 9 of 10 come back after welding their boat and say " I wish I'd spent more time getting ready to do those welds.....(!)"

I hope you'll give yourself adequate time, and hold yourself to high standards of skill comparisons so you bring up your welding skills to a level you'll be pleased to see when your build is done. Practice may not make perfect- but; practicing the right technique can sure make your welds more reliable, correctly sized and attractive.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Kevin Morin

crowsridge
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:46 pm
Location: Eugene, Oregon

Re: Lincoln MP 210 with a spool gun

Post by crowsridge » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:49 pm

Kevin,

Thank you very much for the input. I will take every hint I can get. Like I said, I will keep practicing every day. I go out and work on my design. Cut out some pieces and clamp them up in place. Then I will go melt some wire on the scraps and try and duplicate the joints I just created with the parts.

Since my boat is already built, I am just making the pilot house. Yes, it has to be structural but most of the welds are on the inside to the frame members and don't show. I should be well above the 100 hours mark when I get to the final assembly point. But, like I said earlier, I will have them done if I don't have it right yet.

It was more my intent to be encouraging to try, than to be flippant about the need to do quality work. Getting a consistent bead is my main focus. And a straight line would be nice!!!! I hope to get there eventually.

Thanks again, Chris
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Kevin Morin
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Re: Lincoln MP 210 with a spool gun

Post by Kevin Morin » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:39 pm

Chris, the TIG weld shown has a few problems that could be remedied by #1 joint prep and #2 weld technique.

Image
Here (above) is the first image of the type of joint that appears in your photo. Square extrusion in my image is butted to another square extrusion and then I cut them in half to show the welds- lack of penetration. I realize your mitered butt joint is not identical but this is as close as I have already illustrated.

I'd call your attention to the bead's profile- it crowns up high and the two edges are not flowing very well into the parent metal, that indicates the weld is somewhat lower amperage than needed to fully fuse the parent metal.

Image
Above is an image zoomed in on the edge of the cut down the middle butt jointed square extrusions, noting the shallow root penetration ; INDICATED by the overly rounded Upward crown and the not fully flowing edges of the weld.

Purpose here is to show the entire face of the butted extrusion is not welded to the side of the (left hand) extrusion.

Image

Without any welding, this image shows that a bevel on this type of joint will allow the weld to begin deeper into the parent metal AND the thinner edges of the beveled extrusion are less metal to melt- so the weld can be performed with a lower amperage power supply that may not fully fuse a thicker section of aluminum?

Image

IN this image of a weld added to the joint area prepared with a beveled edge the top of the weld is much less crowned- in fact, the weld could almost be considered upside down, by comparison to the higher crown, less fused welds above on the unprepared joints.

Image

Finally, in this series of images discussing TIG welding extrusions in butt jointed assemblies (even mitered butt joints) I'm showing a pair of beads in cross section. The smaller bead is recessed into a beveled joint preparation, and the large is just a deeper version, both welds have relatively flat crowns, are deeply penetrated into their parent metals and have filled the mechanically cut bevels with weld metal fusing to the sides- no building up on top or highly crowned above the parent metal.

Chris, this bevel method will also give a nice edge along the joints to tract visually while adding these welds helping to give your welds a better line while you're added the filler and moving the torch.

The second item in your weld is the amount of amperage, I'd say that even without a bevel- it would have been more effective weld to keep the torch heating the first puddle area until it was molten, and only added enough wire to get a low crown weld... so that is why I thought the weld 'cold'. #2 Technique to improve that aspect is to make a very small forward and back motion with the torch/tungsten so you're heating the leading edge, then backing up (1/16-3/32" movement) and that tends to keep the weld area hotter than if you just light up, get a small puddle and start to add filler- which will chill the puddle. By adding the forward and back motion you're staying in the weld longer, traveling slower, using more amperage to melt the parent metal- hotter weld for the same settings.

Image

This tank top shows TIG welds where each different weld has room for the weld; a V, or a Lap, or a Gap to Fill allowing the welds to reach down into the parent metal regardless of joint type. This allows the welder to 'see' the top of the puddle and to more uniformly control the appearance of the weld, while following some line, next too the puddle. On the tank top edged to edge, I could follow the plate edges, while on the thickener plates/doublers, I could follow the edge of the plate, and on the pipe couplers I could see the gap between the coupler and the doubler OR... I could follow the top edge of the coupler depending on how that joint was set up.

Practice is a very good thing... and critical to weld improvement but practice stands on the foundation of "joint preparation"- I'd say if there is no good prep (?) there's no reason to weld. I consider correct prep and joint design that critical.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Kevin Morin

crowsridge
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:46 pm
Location: Eugene, Oregon

Re: Lincoln MP 210 with a spool gun

Post by crowsridge » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:12 pm

Thanks Kevin,

That pic is from about a year ago. I was bringing railroad crossing gates home from work after being destroyed at crossings to practice on. That was the last time I tried the tig. I got discouraged because I couldn't get a consistent bead. I since found that the gates have impurities ground into them from exposure and I didn't have the dedicated ss brush I thought I did. My wife and son had used it for other projects. So, those things on top of trying to pick it up from YouTube wasn't the best method.

DISCLAIMER; I did read every one of your posts with pictures on GL. I bought the GL plans for a boat similar to the Snake Shooter, the Rogue Runner. I started making it out of mahogany frames with marine ply and glass. After reading your posts showing the aluminum I got the bug to learn aluminum and bagged the wood version. I just didn't have the practice time in to learn the differences and what action made the results you showed. I think now it will be more likely to sink in on top of what Ive learned in the last year or so.

Kevin Morin
Posts: 699
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Re: Lincoln MP 210 with a spool gun

Post by Kevin Morin » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:17 pm

crowsridge,
I wish I had some railroad gates- !!! that sounds like a good way toward some inexpensive material? Most surface contamination can be removed with a sander/buffer/or brush. The sander can be as fine a grit as you have on hand (not 400!! necessarily), say 60-80-100,120 and if used with pan spray (generic Pam works great) will remove a layer of ground in grit down to clean metal. The grease acts to release the particles so they 'fly off' the sander's pad.

Clean with acetone and weld, new metal having been revealed- ready to go.

Also the3M buffing pads work well, no need to grease them, I use the hook and loop type in brown/coarse; maroon/medium grit; and blue/fine but I'm not sure of their measured grit numbers? These pads are central to my weld prep and have been continually since I learned about them decades ago.

Last is brushing, and I group these into power and hand brushes then subdivide both categories in to products. The power brush is the most critical in my experience, I find the wires have to be the smallest diameter or the wire will gouge/groove/cut the aluminum. The critical dia. I use is 0.014" max wire, with the twisted bundles, and not any larger dia. There are many power (4" dia.) wire wheels that have thicker wire and I don't ever use those on aluminum work.

The hand brushes usually come in two sizes; one size is the little 6" long 'tooth brush' - called that because it looks like a wooden handled wire bristled tooth brush and the other is the 10-12" long full sized brush exactly like those with steel alloy bristles. I periodically dip either type of brush into a bowl of acetone to remove any residual grease or contamination from other work. I too try to keep 'aluminum only' hand tools like brushes but that's not always what happens so the solvent rinse returns the SS to a clean surface for abrading the oxide just before welding and removing mill scale.

If you have pictures of your Rogue Runner build up, I've missed the post but would enjoy looking at the boat, and listening to all you've learned.

Please feel free to ask any questions you think I may help understand? I've sure made a million mistakes learning to build small welded aluminum boats and would be happy to share my "too be avoided list" with you if that could help?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Kevin Morin

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