150 spoolmate

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150 spoolmate

Postby billy c » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:59 pm

Been running my 150 spoolmate without issue until today. Been birdnesting just after the rollers causing the tip to burn back. Checked the path and everything seems to be clean and clear.
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chugalug
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby chugalug » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:09 pm

:D Sometimes when I'm welding at the plant(Polaris) and The wire melts into the tip,it'll do that if the wire tension is to tight. :)
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby billy c » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:31 pm

Yes I was looking at the wire as it left the contact tip and it was a little rough from the feed rollers. Would that cause the problem?
How little tension can I get away with
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby chugalug » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:12 pm

:D Just enough so it doesn't slip.sometimes the rollers would flatten the wire if too tight.also when reassembly,make sure wire is in groove.sometimes wire is dirty so we would run out some and try.also sometimes we would use a cleaner of sorts (looks like overgrown cig filter)coarse we're using 900 lb barrels of wire too so we have extra to play with.The plant uses gas so i haven't tried flux core yet.
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby billy c » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:25 pm

Thanks :D
Maybe tomorrow I won't feel like throwing it in the hopper :roll:
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby chugalug » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:22 am

:roll: Sorry.didn't realize you're using spoolgun.I'm just rambling on What I do with regular Mig welder.thought it might apply to your gun too.curious as to your weld set-up as I 'll need to get a welder to weld boat trailer soon.The one I use at the plant are too spendy for me.We use Lincoln now.we usedto run 250 amp Millers and I really liked those but they're too spendy too. :D
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby billy c » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:21 am

chugalug wrote::roll: Sorry.didn't realize you're using spoolgun.I'm just rambling on What I do with regular Mig welder.thought it might apply to your gun too.curious as to your weld set-up the as I 'll need to get a welder to weld boat trailer soon.The one I use at the plant are too spendy for me.We use Lincoln now.we usedto run 250 amp Millers and I really liked those but they're too spendy too. :D

I just got a Millermatic 211. A little upgrade from what I have used in the past. :D
So far has been a treat to run. The spoolmate worked perfectly the first few spools of wire. Not sure what changed in the delivery but once figured out will be sweet again. ... never ran a spool gun before.
BTW do you make all the off-road toys where you work?
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby chugalug » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:23 pm

:D Most of the stuff i make at work consists of steel frames or sub components of the frames for 4-wheelers,sidexsides or sometimes snow parts.They look more like skeletons to me.not much of my stuff shows when it finishes on the assembly line.all my parts go to metal paint(powder coat and baked in ovens)before going to line.is the wire you're using flux core? with gas or without?
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby billy c » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:51 pm

Most of the diet for the spoolgun has been repairing docks boats and an occasional outdrive. This stuff that has been in the water gets pretty hard to clean up. I have a few seams in a pontoon that cracked right next to its mounting bracket and not sure how that will pan out. Took the spoolgun apart and cleaned things out. Running Argon with .030ER4043 wire. ...Found one of the drive roller screws loose so that may have been why it was nesting wire. Also took your advise and ran less pressure and the wire stopped getting roughed up. So everything is back in good order. Thanks!
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby chugalug » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:15 pm

:D Thanks.I was looking up Millermatic 211 welder.nice looking rig.Would be nice for what i need it for.Said roller on spoolgun has 3 grooves in it for 3 different wires-.030, .035 and flux core.maybe your wire got in wrong one :roll: :roll:we use .030 at the plant- .030 tips in robots and .035 tips in hand welding.
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby billy c » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:11 am

That reference is to the M100 gun that is part of the 211 package. The spoolgun has one set of rollers that are knurled and accept all wire but is pressure driven.
I guess the 211 or 212 is the level to go for things like a trailer. Not the heaviest duty cycle a pro would use daily but great for most people. Where I do repair work on an island having portability and dual voltage is necessary.
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Kevin Morin
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby Kevin Morin » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:09 am

Billy C, just a few notes about the birds'nesting of wire behind the drive rolls. My first assumption (favorite form or logic!! ) is that there is a down stream wire path resitance greater than the wire's stiffness so the drive rolls are pushing wire into the tangle because there is something resisting the wire's travel greater than the drive rolls push- so the wire gives up in between. Maybe that's obvious but not stated - so I'm just making sure that my premise is out there.

I'd look are several points- unless you've already checked and found these not involved? First, I'd look closely at the inlet bushing to the drive housing you show. I've seen these small brass (usually) conic-bore guides end up with either grooves (hang ups or added resistance to the wire path) I've also found a small 'hair' of wire bound up in this bushing- this is where the wire is shaved very slightly until a tiny curl of wire is left to form a bird's nest of its own- and that grabs the wire so there is bird nesting.

Next, is the gun tip liner. I've used air cooled, relatively low wattage guns both push pull and spool gun types where the plastic liner in the tip heated up and melted at the gas cup end. Instead of having a long evenly oversized plastic conduit to guide the wire in the torch neck the melted liner forms a very tight sleeve and resists the wire movement too much; result birds' nest near the drive rolls. IF, not sure of the gun's parts supply sizes, there are extra long wire guide liners available? I'd consider pushing the wire guide liner back inside the guide bushing (if there is one?) and closer to the drive rolls so there is less unsupported span of wire to kink in the initial step of birds' nesting

Last is the contact tip itself. I can't count the number or MIG guns I've worked on with a contact tip that has micro arcing or pitting inside and there for little or no smooth copper to ride the side of the wire to conduct welding power onto the wire as it transits the tip. I'd say at least 50 in since 1975-6 when I started with MIG aluminum. The guide tip bore is critical to both resistance AND transfer of welding power- so what can happen is the clearance of a few thousands of an inch between the wire and the bore is a tiny arc. This can result in a pit and multiplied by hundreds and thousands of times- the bore of tip that began as 0.040- 0.044" for 0.035" wire can become 0.05 or more and the arcing gets more and more pronouced. That stops the wire for a short period of time and can result in both tip fusion (burn back) AND birds' nesting of the wire as the drive rolls keep feeding but the wire is momentarily stopped.

Even if the wire is only stopped for a tiny fraction of a second- as it has been travelling and has momentum - the micro arcing starts the first wire compression kink - the only place the wire is unsupported side ways- is the opening behind the drive rolls to either the inlet bushing or the plastic wire guide tip liner. Once the wire is just slightly kinked- the kinked leg acts to jam the wire at the liner entry and the birds' nest happens.

These are the three main places I'd look to see if they has extra resistance? The arc pitting issue can be checked with a completely new tip or a OA torch tip clearer to rebore or clean the tip bore. The liner can be checked for heat deformity by pulling the gas cup assembly and contract tip and pulling the liner out and the inlet guide or bushing has to be removed from the drive rolls block to get a clear look at its sides and bore.

Hope you've already found a solution to your wire feed problem?

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby chugalug » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:38 am

:D Thanks Kevin ;I was hoping you'd pipe in. :D
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby billy c » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:54 am

Hi Kevin
Thanks for giving me tips on fixing the spoolgun. I changed the tip and cleaned up the bore guide. Also ran wire thru the Stainless tip liner. I must have corrected what went wrong in the process. It is great to know about the working parts and problems. Thanks to your clear description it will save me hours next time the gun goes down.
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Re: 150 spoolmate

Postby Kevin Morin » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:28 pm

Chug & Billy C, one other thing to consider about the this type of problem is the wire itself. 4043 is really (REALLY) soft and will bend if you "look at it- sideways". So, as a wire, especially smaller than 0.045", it's prone to feed problems compared to the 5356 wire that works fine for most all marine 5000 and 6000 series alloys. 4043 was originally for castings where the super high silicone content (huge %) allowed the very brittle castings to be welded and 'live through the process'. 4043 is used by many welders on pure 6061 work too, I prefer the 5086 for this work- especially TIG welding extrusions as the higher heat does break out and actually separate the 4043 wire's alloy components- the result is a granulated surface.

Now; I believe the 4943 alloy wire updates the 4043 alloy for higher strength with as much ease of welding? I only use 5356 and rarely weld on any aluminum alloy but 5086 or 6061- sometimes a little 6063 thrown in too. So I can confine my wire use to to a very stiff (comparatively easy to feed due to stiffness) wire.

Billy C, let me encourage you to explore 5356 alloy wire in your spool gun for 5000 and 6000 series welds. #1 the as-welded tensile strength of the welds are much higher than 4043- not that much higher than 4943! #2 There is no 'level of fusion' issues with 5356- however 4043 has 'mixing' issues (dilution into the weld puddle evenly) and a very WIDE range of welded strength. (5-8x the tested ranges published) #3 4043 is subject to cracking in instances where the parent metal does not 'mix', alloy, diffuse, dilute into the weld and that is due to the very high silicone content which needs to be alloyed into a wide distribution of the weld cross section to avoid stress cracks. & #4if you run 4043 at 'pushed amps' or high heat in order to force 'face wetting' on parts that a 1/4" or thicker - you run a very real risk of reducing the break bend performance (weld performance strength in loading as tested by bending to failure a welded section) because at high heats the alloy will actually: UN-alloy, where the composition of the alloy will separate into parts- not one alloyed metal - and that is indicated when there is granular surface to the weld. 4043 needs a critical dilution of the silicone into some of the molten parent metal to perform correctly- miss that and the weld becomes very weakened over the published spec.

So, 4043 is not the current best choice for any 5k or 6k alloy- 4943 would be a better choice but BETTER still is 5356 alloy since it was designed for these two series of alloys and yields a much higher performance than 4043.

Let me know if this is clear as mud and I'll take another go at making this topic CLEAR AS MUD!

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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