E-10

About inboard or outboard motors.

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upspirate

E-10

Postby upspirate » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:10 pm

Anyone please post their experience with E-10 fuel.

I'm just getting into researching this subject.

I didn't use the boats last year, and since I have,they introduced E-10 here and I've heard lots of problems with it.

Just wondering what problems people have had,how they dealt with them,and preventive measures,modifications to fuel systems, etc

I was at the shop & they showed me two gallon jars with E-10 that separated,how you could shake it to remix & how fast it would fall out of suspension.They said it wasn't water,but the ethanol& gas that were separating in that case.

I'veheard from several sources that the separation can come as soon as 30 days

I know the best solution is to use the boat everyday,but.... :( :? :wink: :roll:
Last edited by upspirate on Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

upspirate

Re: E-10

Postby upspirate » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:16 pm

BTW my boats( other than the sailboat w/ diesel) are 2 stroke outboards with separate oil injection tanks,not fuel/gas pre-mix.

One is a Merc Optimax with EFI,another is a Merc with carbs,and I guess I do have some other outboards with pre-mix...just haven't got to them yet.

Any thoughts on these and inboards too.

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Caber-Feidh
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Re: E-10

Postby Caber-Feidh » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:53 pm

I remember reading a report form KTM on ethanol blends. If I recall right they found 10% ethanol could hold up to 7ml per litre of water in suspention. Once the saturation point is achieved the ethanol/water mixture settles out of the gasoline. In premix, the the alky/water mix burns (more or less), but will lack lubrication. Check fuel tanks for corrosion (yet another lesson learned the hard way... sigh) Also, ethanol is not so friendly to polyester resin, older GRP fuel tanks will get soft. Older carbs may not like ethanol blends. (I have a carter YF marine variant that dissolves the accelerator pump on a 3-month schedule with E-10) Some older fuel lines react badly to the corrosive effects of alcohol... Still, all in all, if we have to use oxy-fuels, it beats MTBE!
Some plan to stroll through Saint Peter's Gates, I plan to go through them at 150mph... backwards... in a screaming ball of flame, with a glimmer belt wrapped around my head, and a NOx button in my hand.

upspirate

Re: E-10

Postby upspirate » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:50 am

Thanks Caber

Any of the additives any help?

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Caber-Feidh
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Re: E-10

Postby Caber-Feidh » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:06 pm

MDR e-zorb is a marine specific treatment, Sta-bil will work for extended storage... although the best recommendations are to keep fuel fresh, and be sure your fuel system is well sealed. open-air outboard vents, and poor sealing caps are the biggest offenders. A topped off fuel tank provides less surface area for water absorption.

Don't use "heet" additive... it's just more alcohol. In a pinch a couple of bottles will bring the octane back up, and keep the water from falling out of suspension while you burn off the fuel, but it's hard of older fuel systems.

Secondly is to be sure your oil is ethanol-compatible. Almost any synthetic from the last 5 years is perfect, but some dino-oils can be touchy.

Most of all, be sure any additive you use does not contain acetone or toluene. I don't remember the chemistry behind the mixture, but it will turn neoprene into liquid-rubber-goop.
Some plan to stroll through Saint Peter's Gates, I plan to go through them at 150mph... backwards... in a screaming ball of flame, with a glimmer belt wrapped around my head, and a NOx button in my hand.

upspirate

Re: E-10

Postby upspirate » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:53 pm

Thanks,

I'll print those out.

I usually use Mercury Optimax oil in the Opti, Merc premium plus in the others

I use a Racor fuel/water separator/filter with the see through bowl at the bottom

Warren

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Bob Maskel
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Re: E-10

Postby Bob Maskel » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:47 pm

upspirate wrote:Anyone please post their experience with E-10 fuel.

Hi Warren, we've had E-10 up here year-round for many years. It started out just during the winter but is all the time now. Actually, you can hardly find 'pure' gasoline here without the ethanol. The main issues have been mentioned above, but one additive I have seen/read about and use is Star-Tron. It is sold by Star-Brite and is supposedly specially made for keeping E-10 gas fresh, prevents phase separation, and cleans the motor. My motor just purrs with that stuff in the tanks. As Caber said, keep the tanks full so the condensation is at a minimum. I have used E-10 and Star-Tron in the Sea Knight with no problems. My motor is a 1993 Mariner and in the owner's manual it even says it is compatible with up to E-10 gasoline. If you have an older tank however, be prepared to change fuel filters when you start using the E-10, as it will dissolve the deposits left by the gas and clog the filters occasionally untill all of it runs through.

As an aside, being as we are in the heart of corn-producing states, there is a lot of E-85 up here. All of our state government vehicles are mandated to use the stuff. It sells for about 40-60 cents per gallon less than the E-10, but gives worse mileage. My daughter drives a Taurus that uses both--E10 and E85 the Flex Fuel vehicles--and even though the price per gallon is less, the mileage is so bad that it is cheaper, per mile, to run the more expensive E-10. Lets hope the E-85 stuff never finds itself in the boats!

See ya,
Bob

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Re: E-10

Postby Nova SS » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:39 am

Bob Maskel wrote:As an aside, being as we are in the heart of corn-producing states, there is a lot of E-85 up here. All of our state government vehicles are mandated to use the stuff. It sells for about 40-60 cents per gallon less than the E-10, but gives worse mileage. My daughter drives a Taurus that uses both--E10 and E85 the Flex Fuel vehicles--and even though the price per gallon is less, the mileage is so bad that it is cheaper, per mile, to run the more expensive E-10. Lets hope the E-85 stuff never finds itself in the boats!

See ya,
Bob


IMHO, the only advantage to E85 is that its a high octane fuel(about the cheapest by far you will find). IF it were avilable here I would be using it in all my toys. Can you say 12.5:1 compression. :twisted: You wont find a cheaper fuel that will support that kind of compression.

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Re: E-10

Postby John K » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:08 am

Dont use Sta-bil for extended periods of non use. Stabil and ethanol don't mix and will form a green slime that plugs carburator and it is worse on 4 strokes than 2 storkes due to jet size. I have had 2 outboard mechanics tell me the same thing. My friend had alot of problems with his 4 stoke. Dealer finally called Merc techs and they told him same thing.

I have switched to Sea Foam. It can be used all the time and that is what my friend is doing with his 4 stroke.

We have had e-10 in our area for along time.

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Bob Maskel
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Re: E-10

Postby Bob Maskel » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:17 pm

[quote="novass
Can you say 12.5:1 compression. :twisted: You wont find a cheaper fuel that will support that kind of compression.[/quote]

Haa, I guess I never thought of that. I'm too old and slow for that kind of performance.... :D

upspirate

Re: E-10

Postby upspirate » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:26 pm

You just get to have fun when you pull them over when they abuse that power and exceed the posted speed limit!!! :shock: :wink:

Nova SS
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Re: E-10

Postby Nova SS » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:42 am

upspirate wrote:You just get to have fun when you pull them over when they abuse that power and exceed the posted speed limit!!! :shock: :wink:



naw, thats what boats are for, except for a few areas most lakes have no speed limit...so I say pour on the coal and let that flat bottom Vdrive fly :wink: :twisted: 8)

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galamb
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Re: E-10

Postby galamb » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:48 pm

Merc and Honda in particular have come out and advised that you run stablizer all the time with the ethanol "enhanced" fuels.

As others have stated here, we have had E10/E15 in Canada for a number of years now and I have been running it in my outboards for at least 7 or 8 seasons for sure.

These fuels do get old in as little as 2 weeks. Aside from attacting moisture, the octane drops rather quickly as well. Some will advise to mix old gas with a higher octane (93) to "bring it back" but while that may address the octane issue, it does nothing if phase separation has occured and you have gas floating on water in the tank.

Also, as other have noted, even with Stabil (or similar products) these fuels do not store worth a damn.

I have not had any issues but do things in the following fashion:

If running one of my (portable) motors - 9.9's, 15, 2.5 horse I use a 3 gallon tank in place of the 6 gallon portable tank when I can. At the end of the weekend etc, if I'm not going to run it again in the next day or two, the leftover gas goes into my Truck - ya, it's mixed at 50:1, but a couple of gallons of 50:1 when it hits my 30 gallon tank in the truck causes no issues - the truck burns it fine.

My 140 which is fed by twin 40 gallon 'built in tanks' provides more of a challenge. However, with a bit of thinking, and a little room for the unexpected, you can buy just enough fuel for the outing.

Of course, those tanks feed a good water separating filter and I do run stabil, but if the gas will sit for more than a month, out it comes (but with planning that is usually no more than will fit into a 5 gallon Jerry can, and then that goes into the truck as well) :)

If you must store ethanol gas, the lastest word is to fill your tank completely and then block off vent with a rubber stopper or cap etc so that no air can get in or out.

I don't prefer that advise. There is something about an unvented tank full of gas sitting for sometimes many months that just don't give me a good feeling - but that's what the pro's are saying...

One final note. If anyone is running a "vintage" outboard (pre 1980's), the ethanol can really do a number on the rubber in the gas lines (under the hood). It will deteriorate it quickly and cause no end of gumming problems throughout the fuel system. So if you have that "classic" 1956 Ev hangin' on the back of your mahogany runabout, do yourself a favour. Take a piece of the gas line down to Napa and pick up a couple feet of bulk line and replace everything on the outboard - it will save you many headaches later...
Graham

Yes, Plywood is "real" wood :)

A "professional" is someone who gets paid for their work - it doesn't necessarily mean they are good at it :)

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kens
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Re: E-10

Postby kens » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:03 pm

Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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Bob Maskel
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Re: E-10

Postby Bob Maskel » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:21 pm

In case anyone is interested, the Star-Tron info is below, or you can go to http://www.StarTron.com

I mentioned it above, but it seems to be a little different than Sta-Bil in that this stuff is supposedly not just a stabilizer...being enzyme based and all that. :) While everyone has their preferences, I've used this in my tanks for 2 years now and the engine runs flawlessly. For the past 2 winters, my boat was stored with E10 for 4 1/2 months from a week after the Gathering to mid-March with 2 full 18 gallon tanks with the StarTron in it. Neither year did I plug the vent. Once I turned the key in the spring it popped off right away and I have gone through both seasons with not so much as a hiccup.

For what its worth...

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/images/stories/catalog/startron_ethanol101.pdf

Bob


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