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 Post subject: A Little Advice
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Hello Guys,

I just spent a couple of hours on the phone looking for plywood for my 11' utility plans I bought. I was searching locally in Las Vegas and figured I'd share the info I came up with.

Peterman Lumber has 3/4" 4x8 douglas fir marine grade plywood for $61 a sheet. Other sizes were not available even from their shipping centers.

84 Lumber has 1/2" 4x8 marine grade plywood for $67 a sheet as well as the 3/4" 4x8 sheet for $74 a piece... I forgot to write down what wood it was made of ... sorry.

Additionally, 84 lumber has luan sheets in the 1/4" size I need for $22 dollars a sheet 4x8.

I have researched on-line and found several companies that supply the exact wood I need at reasonable prices, however the shipping fees and crating charges cost more than the wood itself and is probably not cost effective for small projects like mine.

I will be fiberglassing and encapsulating all wooden parts with system 3 epoxy so could I get away with using the luan? I've done quite a bit of reading in the past(though not recently) and understood luan to be fine for small boats. In a perfect world I would gladly spend the extra on the marine plywood IF I could get it in the proper size. I did think of building the boat heavier and use the 1/2" marine grade, but I hesitate to make any changes to the plans... the plans perfectly suit my needs and I wish to build it exactly as the designer intended. Anyhow, any thoughts and/or advice would be appreciated. I am a noob to boatbuilding and don't wish to make any easily avoidable mistakes.

Thanks and have a good day all,
Mark


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 Post subject: Re: A Little Advice
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:48 pm 
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Location: Marissa, IL
I was hoping someone else would answer this post as some builders can take a fairly hard line about the quality of materials and feel that only marine rated plywood should be used. Personally I am a little more liberal. Even so, I would never argue against the concept that Marine ply is almost always the best. BUT, in my opinion, the individual builder has some latitude depending on what is being built and how it will be used and the expectation of its longevity. The questions I would ask myself are -

1. Do I intend to use the boat a lot OR just something to mess with from time to time?
2. Will it be on the water 24/7 or stored outdoors OR will it be stored under roof?
3. Am I building a heirloom I want future generations to enjoy OR just is this something to knock around with for several years of fun.

To me these can help guide the decision of the quality of the materials you purchase. If you answer yes to the first part of any of the questions I would suggest sticking with marine grade plywood and quality materials through out the build. Also, of the 3 questions, I feel #2 is the most important. A boat that sits on the water a majority of its life OR is stored outdoors is subject to far more hazards than one stored under roof. Even the best trap or cover can develop a leak and water sitting in a wooden boat for months during a storage period can cause serious if not fatal damage. Quality materials may not prevent this but usually will substantially reduce the damage.

On the other hand if you fall in the the category answering yes to the second part of the questions you "may" be able to make a few substitutions and still build a sound craft. The hull of my Cabin Skiff was built mainly with a nice grade of exterior plywood (12 years ago you could find nice exterior plywood - today, not so much!). It has seen a lot of use in the past 12 years and in my estimation is still as sound as the day it rolled out of the shop but it does spend the majority of its life on the trailer and in a shed. So I feel if the situation is right you can hedge a little.

As to luan - First I would want to be 100% sure it was constructed with an exterior glue. Most that I have seen are not and unless it was exterior I personally wouldn't use it. All it would take was a small unnoticed scratch in the bottom to allow a little water intrusion. And it often doesn't take much moisture for interior grade plywood swell, delaminate and cause all sorts of problems. When encapsulating the epoxy does soak into the wood somewhat but no way deep enough to affect and protect the glue lines of the plywood layers. Also any exposed edge of any plywood is a prime place for water to enter no matter what type of ply is used.

Plus laun is not designed for lateral strength. Ofter it has a thick core and very thin outer layers. Also usually there is very little attempt to position the core to add rigidity. A few years back I went to the local lumber yard to buy a sheet of 1/4" luan for a home project. I picked the sheet up by grabbing it in the middle with a hand on each side - it promptly snapped completely in half. Obviously the inner core had a splice all the way across the sheet and the very thin outer layers would not even support its own weight. This may have been extreme but you must remember what laun is designed to do - provide a smooth surface OVER an already solid surface. It doesn't need to be strong.

Another alternative might be MDO (medium density overlay). I used it extensively on my True Grit for the topsides and cabin and I have read some builders have built entire boats with it. I have a posting about its use - good and bad - at this link http://www.egyptian.net/~raymacke/TG/MDO.html. Might be worth taking a look.

And again, all of this is just my opinion and I totally recognize there maybe differing views. Actually that is what makes forums like this such a great resource.

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 Post subject: Re: A Little Advice
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 8:13 am 
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Location: Marietta, GA
Not sure if you've seen it, but system 3 has a pretty good "book" about epoxy use in boat building. They also talk briefly about marine plywood:
Quote:
(page 20)
It is not necessary to use marine grade plywood in boatbuilding.
Marine plywood is basically exterior plywood with a lower void content. Several years ago the plywood association that sets specifications started degrading marine plywood by allowing a higher void content. We believe that the extra cost for fir marine plywood over A-B exterior is not justified today.

That being said, I still used marine plywood in my build.
I don't know if there is or isn't an added benefit, I don't have the experience to say. I do know that it does at least give me that piece of mind, knowing that I used marine grade.

For the 11' utility, luan would probably work fine. Worse case scenario is a piece fails during the build, and you have to go out and buy another sheet. I can't imagine that a piece with voids could "survive" the bends during building, only to fail later in use.

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 Post subject: Re: A Little Advice
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Location: Marissa, IL
The problem I have today with most exterior plywood is the quality. Take a look at a stack of the sheets and note the number of voids in the edges. Most all I am finding looks like Swiss cheese. There has been a very noticeable quality drop in the past 10 years and seems to have taken place after Hurricane Andrew. My thought is there was such a tremendous need at that point the lumber manufactures found they could sell even junk plywood for premium prices. The demand eventually declined but it appears consumers have accepted the lower quality so the makers are more than happy to oblige and maintain a higher profit margin.

When I built my True Grit (2005) I could not find any exterior I thought worthy of a boat and as a result used all marine DF. Yes, it was not the quality marine ply used to be but it was still a bunch better than the exterior. But then again I was building a large and expensive boat and the hull was its foundation - not a place to take a chance on inferior plywood.

BUT I agree, in this situation we are talking about an 11' Utility. On the True Grit project I found at Lowes what they called a 1/4" luan that was made with exterior glue. It was actually a little under 1/4" (closer to 5mm if I remember correctly) but it was made from 3 equally thick laminations, nice surfaces and next to no voids. At the time I think I paid about $11 a sheet. I used probably 10 sheets for all sorts of stuff inside the hull and cabin. And if the thickness is not a problem I would certainly consider it for a project like the Utility.

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 Post subject: Re: A Little Advice
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:36 am 
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Location: Birmingham, AL, USA
I used that same luan on the mini-tug. I did take good care to seal it. I have a nice sheet of ABX 3/4". But, I've ahd a hard time finding local ply worth a damn. As Ray said, look at the edge of a stack. I usually walk away.

Bill

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 Post subject: Re: A Little Advice
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 2:32 am 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 3:06 am
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Thank you for all the replies and info. I am still going to try and find the marine in 1/4", but if not I will look for alternatives.

Thanks again,
Mark


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 Post subject: Re: A Little Advice
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:47 pm 
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I need to make a correction to my above post. The exterior luan I bought from Lowes was 5 ply not 3. I looked at a scrap today and it has 3 thicker inner layers and a thin skin on each side.

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