Rampage update

Designs for inboard or outboard power

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Denon Osterman
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Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:58 am
Location: toronto, CAN

Rampage update

Post by Denon Osterman »

Hey guys, sorry this took so long, had a hectic end of summer. Anyways there's gonna be a few posts since I'm limited to 3 pictures each, and everyone loves pictures!

Here's 3 pictures after I'd done the first and second coats of stain. The first two are a comparison between 1 and 2 coats, and the third shows the side up close. I protected the white stripe while staining as follows - first, I masked all the mahagony beside the ash, and covered the ash with epoxy that was right at the end of it's potlife, painting it on with a skinny brush. Then I removed the masking tape, leaving just the ash covered in epoxy. after every coat of stain, the stain is wipped off - the ash came out almost perfectly clear. At the end, the epoxy was very carefully finger sanded back off to remove any residual stain or scuffs before the whole boat was sealed.
Attachments
1 coat- still somewhat uneven
1 coat- still somewhat uneven
2 coats- looks quite dark here
2 coats- looks quite dark here
Close up
Close up
Denon Osterman
Posts: 556
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:58 am
Location: toronto, CAN

Re: Rampage update

Post by Denon Osterman »

After the stain, I had to use CPES to seal the boat completely, because I used oil based stain. My recomendation to everyone is to avoid this step entirely by NOT using an oil based stain! It wasn't overly dfficult, just more time and money gone. I used system 3 cpes, which you DEFINITELY need an organic vapour mask for, and painted it on with a brush to avoid running after the stain had dried for a number of days. it took two heavy coats (1.5 gallons) to get the wood covered in a thin layer of the stuff. Drying times for all stages including full wet out of fiberglass (see next post) were timed so that a chemical bond was achieved at every stage. The sealent left the boat looking kind of semi gloss - shiny, but not in a very pretty way.
Attachments
the whole boat has a sort of metalic look to it from the sealer
the whole boat has a sort of metalic look to it from the sealer
The sealent gave the whole hull a sort of eerie sheen - I left the back bare unstained part unsealed.
The sealent gave the whole hull a sort of eerie sheen - I left the back bare unstained part unsealed.
After the sealent
After the sealent
Denon Osterman
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Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:58 am
Location: toronto, CAN

Re: Rampage update

Post by Denon Osterman »

The fiberglass was put on using the "dry" method over the sealent, though the sealent was still curing (tacky ish) to allow a full chemical bond between epoxy and sealent. the bottom cloth was 10 oz and the sides are 6 - we had some problems fully wetting out the 10 oz cloth, especially around the seems where there was some overlap, but all air bubbles have since been fixed and the sides had no wetout issues whatsoever. These three pics show the bottoms being fitted, the boat after wet out, and the boat after sanding to allow a second coat (of many) of epoxy to smooth the hull. The whole thing took almost 6 gallons of epoxy in the 2 full coats I have on there so far - the first coat of wet out took 3 people around 3 hours (and I would not have less then 3 people, unless there are two people that have done it before many times!), and the other coat of wet out took me 1 hour - the second full coat after sanding took another hour.
Attachments
ready for round 2
ready for round 2
glassed!
glassed!
fitting the bottom
fitting the bottom
Last edited by Denon Osterman on Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Denon Osterman
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Re: Rampage update

Post by Denon Osterman »

Some of the overlaps were particularly hard to wet out, as mentioned before, as shown in pic 1 of this post. whenever there were air bubbles left, they were sanded with a power filler (black and decker) and picked at with an exact knife until the whole "cover" of the bubble was gone. they were then very lightly sanded and filled with epoxy, and are now all invisible!

The second picture shows the 4 gallon jug of resin and KFC mixing buckets we used to glass the boat, and the final picture shows the boat as it sits now, waiting to be sanded. epoxied, sanded, varnished, sanded, varnished, sanded, varnished, etc, which my dad is hoping to start on in the fall. If we're lucky we should be able to get the bottom done by thanksgiving, and get it flipped on thanksgiving!
Attachments
some bubbles/not filled epoxy in the transom. Try as we did, we couldn't get epoxy to fill out the weave back there - the double fold of 10 oz cloth, with another layer of 6 oz from the sides at the corner, kept trying to "unbend' around the sharp corner, recreating the bubbles. They've all been fixed since though!
some bubbles/not filled epoxy in the transom. Try as we did, we couldn't get epoxy to fill out the weave back there - the double fold of 10 oz cloth, with another layer of 6 oz from the sides at the corner, kept trying to "unbend' around the sharp corner, recreating the bubbles. They've all been fixed since though!
*tons* of resin. So much. Ridiculous amounts. A full KFC bucket weighs a disturbing amount (as in, oh shit if I drop this I'm screwed), and when you pour that much epoxy it's viscosity changes and globs of it seem to float over other parts, going everywhere.
*tons* of resin. So much. Ridiculous amounts. A full KFC bucket weighs a disturbing amount (as in, oh shit if I drop this I'm screwed), and when you pour that much epoxy it's viscosity changes and globs of it seem to float over other parts, going everywhere.
Boat with 2 layers of epoxy on fiberglass
Boat with 2 layers of epoxy on fiberglass
Denon Osterman
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Re: Rampage update

Post by Denon Osterman »

Last but not least here are some closeups showing the sides at various stages. First is after the first wet out, the second is after the rough sanding, and the last one is after the second coat, showing how the wood looks up close. I really like the colouring and richness of the stain, and how everything turned out...but boy oh boy is it scary every time you sad the epoxy to grey smudges, I still can't believe it comes back so clear! Anyways, I won't be able to work on it again until thanksgiving when I'm home for the break...wish me luck on getting it flipped! Any comments, concerns, questions and suggestions are of course always welcome!

Thanks,
Denon
Attachments
After wet out, still quite rough. Slightly blurry (sorry!)
After wet out, still quite rough. Slightly blurry (sorry!)
After rough sanding the high spots quite a bit. All the "low areas" were hand/finger sanded for adhesion to the next layer of epoxy, which when re sanded to this same level, should be almost perfectly smooth.
After rough sanding the high spots quite a bit. All the "low areas" were hand/finger sanded for adhesion to the next layer of epoxy, which when re sanded to this same level, should be almost perfectly smooth.
How it looks now, closeup. Still fairly rough, but much smoother then before. Slightly dusty (sorry!)
How it looks now, closeup. Still fairly rough, but much smoother then before. Slightly dusty (sorry!)
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rbrandenstein
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Re: Rampage update

Post by rbrandenstein »

And now comes the fun part, sanding all that epoxy to get a smooth finish.
Looks good. The stripe creates a nice accent to the hull.
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Completed Malahini (launched 6/24/2012)
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Denon Osterman
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Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:58 am
Location: toronto, CAN

Re: Rampage update

Post by Denon Osterman »

rbrandenstein wrote:And now comes the fun part, sanding all that epoxy to get a smooth finish.
Looks good. The stripe creates a nice accent to the hull.
Yeah, sanding................ :cry:

A full summer later (admittedly working far less then normal), I'm ALMOST done the sanding! yaayy!!! :shock:

As usual, many pictures means 2-3 updates. Over the course of the summer, the total coats went from the 2 (i.e. initial wet out + one sand & recoat, see previous pics) to 12. The three pics in this post are of the before and after of coat 11 - the vast majority of the hull is gray at this point, instead of the earlier pics where it's ~50/50. When we got to complete gray coverage, with no spots at all (see following posts), we finished with the epoxy (which is where I am right now - I ran out of time to start varnishing or painting, sadly, but will try to get that done on thanksgiving). It's wickedly smooth, so the varnish should go on nice at this point - you can already see a decent reflection in coat 11, which is before the ripples from the roller have been sanded out. We plan to lay on 8-10 coats of varnish with the spray gun, and then final sand to 2000 grit and polish for a mirror like finish. The bottom, below the waterline, will be painted black - I'm painting everything on the bottom that's plywood coloured now, and then the rest once the waterline has been marked.
Attachments
Before coat 11 - pretty good, but still a few low spots (the dark areas)
Before coat 11 - pretty good, but still a few low spots (the dark areas)
After coat 11, before sanding - you can start to see my reflection!
After coat 11, before sanding - you can start to see my reflection!
after sanding coat 11 - nearly there!
after sanding coat 11 - nearly there!
Denon Osterman
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Location: toronto, CAN

Re: Rampage update

Post by Denon Osterman »

After coat 11, we decided to put the rails (lift strakes) on, so we could sand out any excess epoxy that dripped down before our final finish coat of epoxy (this turned out to be a good idea). I was hoping to put on wider then called for rails based on comments on this and other forums about top end performance, but couldn't get the lumber. In the end, I kept the stock dimensions, but put on three rails instead of the two called for - one for each batten. Once the rails were fastened*, They were coated with 5 coats of epoxy - this is all that was needed to get them totally smooth and coated. Though it was incredibly frustrating to have to re sand the bottom once they'd been put on, which I still haven't been able to complete, I maintain that it was better to put them on after the hull was smooth, as it would have been *much* harder to smooth the hull with the rails in place.

*I bought an impact driver for the screws. Worth it's weight in DIAMOND. Before, using a drill, I'd get an 80-90% success rate with the Glen-L screws, using the full countersink and tapered bore, everything. With the driver, I haven't stripped a single screw, and I've been able to (without any pilot hole, ANYTHING) drive screws of different sizes (from an 1 1/2" to a 3") completely through a scrap peice of my keel, which is 4 inches wide! Amazing.
Attachments
The rails are on! For some reason, this step seems to do the most for making the boat look like an actual boat...(IMHO)
The rails are on! For some reason, this step seems to do the most for making the boat look like an actual boat...(IMHO)
both putting the rails on and coating them with the 5 coats of epoxy left tons of epoxy drips between the rails that had to be sanded away...
both putting the rails on and coating them with the 5 coats of epoxy left tons of epoxy drips between the rails that had to be sanded away...
Final coat on the rails, and most of the stuff between has been sanded smooth
Final coat on the rails, and most of the stuff between has been sanded smooth
Denon Osterman
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Re: Rampage update

Post by Denon Osterman »

Finally, once the rails were on, It was time to sand again! The sides are completely smooth, and ready to go for the varnish. Most of the bottom is 80% of the way, though the middle section over the keel is completely unfinished, and everywhere still needs a fair bit of work. That being said, the back 6 feet of the boat are already completely flat, so there is no leveling to do. As well, when rough shaping the rails, I (stupidly) thought it would be a good idea to start with the power planner to rough shape the front end of the rails. I HAD propped them off the boat (I'm not THAT stupid!), but forgot my "unlimited rebate" planer also planned from one side. I heard the sickening sound of planner on epoxy, and looked down to see a nice 6" V shaped gouge in the bottom! It was ~3/16" wide, equally deep, and hadn't even reached the fiberglass! So, my hull will probably be a little heavier then normal, but it's almost indestructible!

Will try and get some more work done on the thanksgiving weekend, though the temperatures might make that tough...Sorry I didn't end with a nice shinny picture this time! :wink:

Thanks,
Denon
Attachments
After the final coat - totally smooth!
After the final coat - totally smooth!
The sides. Pretty much perfect, I hope...
The sides. Pretty much perfect, I hope...
The boat overall. A tiny bit out of focus, sorry about that. You can see where it still needs to be sanded in the middle, and the spots around the rest of the bottom.
The boat overall. A tiny bit out of focus, sorry about that. You can see where it still needs to be sanded in the middle, and the spots around the rest of the bottom.
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Roberta
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Re: Rampage update

Post by Roberta »

That's gonna really pop when you get the varnish down!!!

Roberta :D :D :D :D :D
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".
Denon Osterman
Posts: 556
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:58 am
Location: toronto, CAN

Re: Rampage update

Post by Denon Osterman »

Hi Everyone!

Apologies I've been MIA for so long - I was away at school all winter, then had some serious issues getting my jet pump here. The distributor I chose to go with sent me the wrong intake, and it took over a month (including a call to American Turbine themselves to tell him to sell me the right one!), along with an incredible amount of time wasted with UPS (NEVER USE UPS, is my advice :( ) to get things sorted out.

Anyways, I finally got back to working on the Rampage this weekend, and managed to get the pump nearly roughed in. Oh man, if I've ever done a scarier thing than cut a 2 sq ft hole into my boat, I don't know what it is...you guys and your shaft holes have it easy! :P

I also had a critical lapse in memory, and forgot I'd brought exactly the tools I'd need (belt sander, circular saw) to work. So I had to do nearly everything by hand, with the addition of a power planer, old jigsaw, and "power filer" (belt sander with a 1/2" belt, useful for screws and such). The pump has a really awkward 3D profile through the transom, so you have to cut the intake hole, cut the transom hole, and then route out the landing area around the intake hole. I used a table saw to cut an extra chunk of keel to exactly half the intake hole (4"X20"), minus a quarter inch everywhere for tolerance, with a 12 degree profile to match the bottom, so I could easily line up the cut. The circular saw would have been great, but the jigsaw did a decent job of rough cutting everything around the template and I got a pretty decent hole - I just measured for the transom cut, as it's no where near as critical. Next up was the landing area - this took a lot of time. Like, a LOT of time. I had to chisel out a ~1 inch boarder around the intake hole with a sloped profile to a depth between 3/4" (at the intake hole) and 3/8" (at the edge of the landing area). as the outside edge was exactly the depth of the plywood lamination on the keel, I found it easiest to completely remove the lamination from that area (even where the pump isn't going to be...oops) and then chisel away at the timber. Many, many hours of chiseling and hand sanding later, I had a rough fit for my pump! Finishing the fit and cutting the rest of the transom for the actual pump unit took another 4-5 hours, including rough sanding the keel to the intake on the outside. It still needs finishing work, but I gave up and decided to wait until I could get the belt sander, as it really is the tool for the job at this point. The observant will notice the pump flange sticks out at the top - it's for an 8 degree transom, but I decided long ago I prefer the flat transom and a wedge block that's fit exactly to the pump, so it's intentional.

Now for my question...how to fasten it! The fastening kit is clearly for steel or fiberglass boats as there are only machine screws (and the wrong ones at that...another mess up on my distributors part :x ). The intake has ~10-20 holes, un-threaded, around the lip that rests on the landing area. I'm thinking the best idea is to buy threaded brass rod from glen-L, drill overly large holes aligned with the intake holes, epoxy short sections (~1") of threaded rod into the holes, slide the pump on, and bolt it in. Alternatives are to get ridiculously fat short hex head wood screws, or drill holes through the hull and use carriage bolts to bolt it through from the bottom. I don't think I really like the short wood screw idea as the hole dimensions seem too off. I'm leaning towards the threaded rod as I then don't have to drill through my hull (which I*really* don't want to do...), but worry that the threaded rod won't have the strength or integrity as through-bolting with the carriage bolts will. Thoughts?

Oh yeah, pictures!

(let me know if links don't work, or if you want full size)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 7909_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 8784_n.jpg
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https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 8296_n.jpg
https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 6816_n.jpg

Thanks,

Denon
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rbrandenstein
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Re: Rampage update

Post by rbrandenstein »

I'd feel much better with a through bolt than rod embedded in epoxy. Especially such a short section.

Is it possible to redo the landing area by putting some flat head bolts through some wood and then attaching the wood to the hull with the bolts sticking up aligned with the mounting holes? Or, possibly embed some stainless steel T-nuts you could attach to.

If not, I would through-bolt through the hull.
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Completed Malahini (launched 6/24/2012)
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Denon Osterman
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Re: Rampage update

Post by Denon Osterman »

Oh man...it's been a while since I posted :S

Two updates it is! I swear I'd already posted update 1, so forgive if it's a double.

Update 1 is that I managed to get the entire bottom of the hull (including sides, but not transom - more on that in a sec) FINISHED!!! This includes 2 coats of marine topside paint on the bottom and many many coats of varnish on the sides.

PREP: It's true what they say, the preparation is 90% of the finish. It took the entire summer to finish the full flat enough for my standards - the epoxy is a few millimeters thick on the bottom, and 1 or 2 on the sides, from the endless re coats and sanding to get things *flat*. This was totally rewarded when I ended up doing the finish though, and is critical to the performance of a high speed hull such as this one. The intake to my jet pump took a particularly large amount of time to shape the hull and seal the through bolts etc etc, especially since it's in one of the most critical areas of the boat running-surface wise. A very very key tool for the prep work and part of the varnishing was a random orbital sander. I picked up two 2 amp sanders for 22 bucks each (not making this up), courtesy of Canadian tire. They work great, both look good as new most of a summer or heavy use and abuse later. They have the best finish possible from a sander - even with course 60 grit paper, they don't gouge - but they still remove material remarkably fast, second only to the mighty (and still much faster) belt sander. A belt sander is both overkill for this kind of finishing work, and also didn't fit between the bottom runners, so the RO fit the bill perfectly.

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=54E7412D
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 70b3d9e2bd


VARNISH: I decided to varnish first and paint later, covering the varnish while I painted to ensure it wouldn't get damaged. I was also having problems with paint, and running out of time, so varnish came first. I used Epifanes Clear High Gloss Varnish, which I'm pretty sure is "the" varnish. Man, is that stuff full of solids :) . The directions spec 3 thinned coats to fill the grain and soak into the wood, before 4 more finishing coats are applied. Given my grain had already been more than filled by the 20 some odd coats of epoxy in the prep work, I decided to forego the first two thinned coats, but added a extra unthinned one on the end (6 coats, 1 partially thickened, total). It was impossible to tell a difference after the third coat, but the extra 3 can't possibly hurt. I used disposable foam brushes - see my post in the paints section - and very lightly sanded between coats with the RO for the first 2 coats, then a board/hand sand. It was pretty much impossible to get a PERFECT mirror finish as the varnish ran under gravity, given the orientation of the surface, but it still looks beautiful IMO and I'm very confident in my abilities for the top, which will be nearly flat and should therefore have an even better finish!

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=54E661F0
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 943fb8b70c

PAINT: Oh boy, boat paint. This has almost been the most difficult part of the boat so far, just finding the right damn type of paint to use! I ended up going with a 1 part epoxy from interlux for 3 reasons. 1) A bottom paint was out of the question as I run in fresh water (making it unneeded), don't want to reapply yearly (making it annoying) and swim in / drink a filtered version of, the lake water the boat sits in...and apparently the "anti fouling" is toxic even to humans. 2) In vain, I consulted two local boat builders, both of whom said leaving a 1 part spoxy submerged in a freshwater lake for a couple of months at a time would be totally fine. At worse, I'd have to re finish, which I'd be doing with anti fouling anyways. 3)It's impossible to buy anything but interlux in black in Ontario for some reason. It went on a lot thinner than I would have liked, but after the recommended two coats the boat was completely black below (above?) the predicted waterline, very smooth and looking beautiful.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 6a58aeb520
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=54E944B6
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/ ... a0f11236e4

Ultimately, the bottom finished up great. I'm a little upset with the weave of the cloth showing through on the bottom front, but otherwise I think it looks stunning. Hopefully I won't even see the weave when I flip it over...

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=54ED3F67

...which brings us to Update 2, FLIPPING THE BOAT!!!

On the very last day of the season, literally hours before we locked up the cottage and left it for another winter, I flipped the boat. I can't express my joy at having accomplished this - it was my only goal for the summer, and an extremely safe one at the onset. But, problems with the jet and schedules filling up meant that it soon looked impossible to get ready in time. Then when I took a week off to finish the hull, the weather hit a freak cold snap and dropped below the temps required to varnish and paint. It looked like I would have to wait a whole extra year to flip the boat, which I really wasn't excited for. Thankfully, between some space heaters and long nights, I managed to get it done without rushing a single thing in any way. It was very important to me to not flip the boat if it wasn't truly ready, but thankfully it is! The only thing "not finished" is the transom, but given it's exact vertical angle it seems more fitting to do so after the flip, anyways.

Once the finish was completely finished I had to make some berths for the hull to rest on while it was finished. I ended up building two sort of foam V births. They effectively support the entire flat running surface rear (and extend significantly forward in case the boat decides to pivot forward for some reason), other than the pump and keel section. These are suspended given their irregular shape, though there is still foam underneath them incase something happens and they do end up bearing load. Everyone - and I mean everyone - wouldn't shut up that I was overbuilding them significantly, and that two stringers would be fine. When the flip actually came, we ended up having to drop the boat the last foot, and I was *DAMN GLAD* I'd "overbuilt" them. Besides, they'll be holding it, and me, and potentially a helper, for the next couple of years while I use heavy machinery. I'd rather have it be overbuilt than anything else!

Finally, when the frames and boat were both ready, it was time to flip! I'm extremely lucky to have a next door neighbor who has done this - flipping a home built boat - something like 10 times. He's done the last 5 single handidly (seriously) using this method, and it would have worked great if only the straps we'd used had fit my boat slightly better (it still went very well, but I was certainly thankful we had 10 people standing by as well!). The idea takes 4 chainblocks, rendering it difficult for most, but it's a joy to watch. At two frames (5 and 1 in my case), the boat is fully circled with a strap (somewhat loosely, you don't want them squishing the boat) and then the strap attached to two chain falls. One chain fall starts all the way up, the other all the way down. You raise the one that is all the way down, while lowering the other. This effectively rolls the boat in place! The issue that came up with mine is that our straps were monsterous and wrapped the boat 2.5 times, so they were effectively half length. We only managed to get the boat 3/4's of the way over before we had to re jig the chain falls to level it and, ultimately, drop it about 6 inches. Thankfully everything went incredibly smoothly - it even landed level - with no damages, strain, or injury of any sort.



https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 49f23fb95e <--can someone please let me know if this works?

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=54D59B2A
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/ ... f9e901ad3a
https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=54EAEEAD
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 0767b53c1a
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=54E2E170

With that, the rampage now sits upright for the winter, awaiting next season when I'll begin on the topsides. For the first winter in what seems like forever, I can finally being spending time on the boat - planning out hardware locations, deck profiles, etc. I think she looks wickedly beautiful so far and I can't wait to have the deck on, hardware shining, and me in the drivers seat :D

Cheers as always,

Denon
slug
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Re: Rampage update

Post by slug »

Denon; Good source for any kind of fasteners in Toronto is Pacific Fasteners, and good pricing. They have a catalogue on line.
Doug
Trackhappy
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Re: Rampage update

Post by Trackhappy »

Fantastic job! Your Facebook page works BTW. That pump looks wicked sticking out there!
By the time I have built a boat, I'll be ready to build a boat....
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