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Anyone here using a laser level to set up building forms, frames, and general alignment work?
What are you using and how do you find it? Tried one and found a piece of string was just as good? What's the best type to get?
I've always used string until now, but I'm thinking of getting a laser as it would seem to offer certain advantages, especially later in the build when re-checking is neccessary and the original string is long gone.

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Graham in Shepperton, England

Good, Quick, Cheap, pick any two.

I have an inexpensive one. That I put on a tripod. The only use I've really found was projecting the set-up/waterline. And, then leveling it was a bother. On a sloped surface you don't get a crisp line.

Right now I have a string stretched down my deck.

The cat likes it!

Bill

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Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

Yes I was wondering about the accuracy and also the sharpness of the projected line. I've been looking at some inexpensive self-levelling tripod mounted ones, they project a horizontal and/or vertical line which I thought might be useful to level the building form initially, then to set the moulds and frames vertically. Also to set the heights of the moulds without relying on measuring up from a datum line.
The problem with strings is that they always get in the way eventually and have to be moved, I'm wondering if the laser might be better in that respect as it projects a line from a distance.

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Graham in Shepperton, England

Good, Quick, Cheap, pick any two.

I use the string as my reference line. Yes, it gets in the way, gets broken and all that. That's why I marked a permanant center at each end of the setup, then I take a spool of mono fishing line and dedicate it to the setup level. Whenever the line breaks, I just pull off a fresh string and move on.

Just for the read,

http://www.mytoolstore.com/laser/lasers.html

Here's how one guy used a pen laser................

"Once the boat is positioned, tape the laser to the level and put the level on something that swivels, e.g. an office chair. Place this at the back of the boat at the centerline; adjust the chair height so the laser beam hits the two transom points and the bow. You now have a "marker" to insure the two sides of the cut and the gunnel are "fair and continuous". Two people here work best. Have one rotate the "laser level", and the second mark with a marker pen on the gunnel. It is a simple matter at this point to clean up the cut."


This same guy had this to say...............

"My favorite tool for cutting composites my NIKITA 3.5" battery powered rotary saw. My second most favorite tool is a lot of beer for even considering doing such a stupid thing."

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One day.

My Brother has a rather expensive laser level (brand escapes me) and it claims accuracy to 1/4" over 100 feet. I looked at cheaper units and found claimed accuracies as bad as 3/8 over 50 feet.

I just purchased $5 of 1/2 tubing and will be teaching my son the art of the old fashioned water level. Good experience for him and I saved a ton of cash.

Eric

The cheaper levels I've looked at typically claim 0.5mm accuracy over 1m, so approx 3mm (1/8") over the full length of my new boat, I'd think that should be quite adequate. Most of the time of course I wouldn't be working over the full length anyway so accuracy would be improved.
I don't think you'd be able to do much better with strings and spirit levels, but I'd probably still use those to double check the results, at least at first until I learn to trust the laser (or not!).

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Graham in Shepperton, England

Good, Quick, Cheap, pick any two.

OK...my point of view will be difficult to explain in english ! but let's go.

I have used a laser level for home works : it's very helpful when using on a "area" and to draw a nearly level line. i.e a line all over a large room, to be sure that the 2 end of line are in continuity.

But the laser line is quiet large, and for very accuracy work on little distance, its more difficult to use.

Another point is the position of the laser level : a classic level with water bubble (I don't know the exact name) is convenient to use because the inferior part is flat and can be fix on a part of the boat. If the water level is too small, we can fix it on a long graduated ruler.

About the accuracy: if you take a good water level, the accuracy is 0.5mm/m (but some other are only 2mm/m!...) and I think it's sufficient.

The only very good application to my point of view is the Bill Edmundson'sexample, tojecting the set-up/waterline: take a level line on a non flat area is possible with a water level but very boring.

I don't know if you see what I want to say, but to resume : I keep my old water level and laser level is made to take level with 2 points spaced out (10 m...)

OK...my point of view will be difficult to explain in english ! but let's go.

I have used a laser level for home works : it's very helpful when using on a "area" and to draw a nearly level line. i.e a line all over a large room, to be sure that the 2 end of line are in continuity.

But the laser line is quiet large, and for very accuracy work on little distance, its more difficult to use.

Another point is the position of the laser level : a classic level with water bubble (I don't know the exact name) is convenient to use because the inferior part is flat and can be fix on a part of the boat. If the water level is too small, we can fix it on a long graduated ruler.

About the accuracy: if you take a good water level, the accuracy is 0.5mm/m (but some other are only 2mm/m!...) and I think it's sufficient.

The only very good application to my point of view is the Bill Edmundson'sexample, tojecting the set-up/waterline: take a level line on a non flat area is possible with a water level but very boring.

I don't know if you see what I want to say, but to resume : I keep my old water level and laser level is made to take level with 2 points spaced out (10 m...)

You know what? When the water is calm and someone is in the boat..the boat won't be "calm" so the line won't be critical...when the water is not so calm the line won't matter anyway !!! How good is good? ...Everytime I look over the side of the tug boat to see how the waterline looks it goes under water..so I quickly run to the other side..opps it is now underwater...I do that enlessly after a couple of beeeeerrs

Steve

I've used the ultra expensive rotating level in construction and they are sweet! That said, I dont' own one.

At the shop, we set up teh frames with a single point laser level on a tripod. That laser is set dead level with a hand held (4') digital level.

We then use the digital level to set the bulkheads and all other 'important' parts. I had never used a digital level before and I have to say that I was amazed! I went out and bought the 2' version for myself. It reads out as accurate as 1/10 (89.9 degrees). Super easy to use and read. You can even lock the reading so that you can pull it down and then read the measurement.

The digital level used on the laser dramatically improves the accuracy of the laser. The leveling on the laser itself is not very accurate.

I think the critical thing with the level is not so much that it's level, but that it's consistent.
For "levelling" the building form it doesn't really matter if it's a degree or two out, so long as the next time you use the level to mark a horizontal line it's out by the same amount, and the same when you use it to measure verticals too.
I guess the thing to do would be to use the laser to mark some reference points somewhere where they won't move, like on the wall, then each time you use the laser for something critical just take a moment to check it against the reference points.

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Graham in Shepperton, England

Good, Quick, Cheap, pick any two.

That's what we use the digital level for.

Let me begin by saying I like gadgets, so that may distort my opinion. With that said I like using a laser level. Quick, convenient and accurate enough for me. I own two. One is a crosshair type and the other will do a horizontal 360 line. The units are inexpensive, at least considering what you can spend on these.

I tried several different units before I found one I liked. In my opinion if it is not self leveling it is too much of a pain to use. On the manual leveling units not only do you have to take time to level it on two axis but any movement or accidental bump will knock it off. If you don’t notice it can obviously cause errors. Self-leveling is sweet. Just put it where you want it and it does the work. Bump it and it shakes but comes back to level.

About accuracy. More expensive usually means more accurate but the type of “accuracy” may not be what you imagine. All of these units are capable of shooting a very level line. What the more expensive units do is project a “finer” line a longer distance. For example, one unit may be accurate to 1/8” in 50 ft while another is 1/4” accurate at 50 ft. What this means is at 50’ the one will draw a red line 1/8” thick on the target and the other will have a 1/4” red line. But on the inexpensive unit it is usually easy to just place you pencil mark in the center of the 1/4” line rather than in the center of an 1/8” line. It’s no big deal.

On the downside, none of these work well outside without a special sensor ($$) to find the line. Can’t see it with your eye. In fact, bright shop lights can make it harder to see.

I use mine often for different things. I have a waterline reference mark on the wall of my shop and can quickly project it to the side of the hull. Don’t have to worry about sanding or covering a marking the hull itself. Also, I am sure it will be handy whan layout the interior bulkheads, cabinet and such.

Today I wanted to mount a horizontal stiffener the full width of the transom on the inside of my inverted 27’ hull, which is on the building fixture. I had a line on the outside of the angled transom (developed with the laser level) and wanted to duplicate on the inside. Drilled a 1/16” hole through the transom mark the spot and used the laser level on a tripod (necessary accessory – camera tripod works fine) to shoot the line. Sure, I could have used a 4’ bubble level and slid it across but this gave me a continuous line with no fuss.

Also, I kicked on the 360 degree feature (was set to 120 degree) and it painted a level line completely around the interior of the boat. How could I use this, well………. I don’t know BUT is sure was cool! But remember, I like gadgets.

Here are the units I have. Think they cost a bout $75 each.

http://www.blackanddecker.com/ProductGuide/Product-Details.aspx?ProductID=6463

http://www.blackanddecker.com/ProductGuide/Product-Details.aspx?ProductID=7859

That crossfire one is the kind of thing I'm thinking of buying. For a 21' boat I'd think one of the cheaper ones ought to be accurate enough, it's not often that I'd be using it over the full 21' length after all, most of the time I'd think it would be more like 6'.
I'm definitely going to get one and give it a try, I don't see it as a complete replacement for "traditional" methods, I expect I'll still use those alongside it, but for certain procedures it looks like a better way.

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Graham in Shepperton, England

Good, Quick, Cheap, pick any two.