Highschool Riviera Build Project

Designs for inboard or outboard power

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Dave Grason
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby Dave Grason » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:14 am

We're seeing more and more forum members using CPES. It seems as though it is becoming recognized as a very versatile product.

The Riv is looking really good.
Isn't it amazing!! The person that never has the fortitude to pursue his own dreams, will be the first to try and discourage you from pursuing yours.

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jamundsen
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby jamundsen » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:51 am

Since the Sandusky stain is oil based I would put two coats of CPES on it. I used one but wish I had done two. Oil stains don't take well to epoxy. Somewhere on the forum somebody did a test with fiberglass and epoxy over the stain and then a test with cpes and then glass and epoxy. The one without cpes the glass just peeled off.
I would put both coats on right away. When I did my deck I got to the stern and started over at the bow with the cpes. It really helps to seal the oil stain so the epoxy will adhere. If I build another I will probably use a water based stain.
John Amundsen
Monte Carlo
Lakeland,Fl

Work tends to get in the way of boat building

Brian
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby Brian » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:48 am

I am using a LOT of Smiths CPES on my Monte Carlo, inside and out (bought a serious respirator). I called Smiths re staining and got a sheet on the subject. They recommend CPES first on the bare wood, then some light sanding, then stain, then more CPES. Thorough drying time, more light sanding, then fiberglass. This is the process I'm following.

I wasn't going to stain the Sapele, as it looks great with the CPES on it, but I have white Raptor staple legs dotting a few places (mainly on the transom). I think I didn't use brown staples because they aren't available in the size I needed. But in a test piece, the staples take water-based stain well. In any case, I'm wondering if I need to stain the whole hull just to stain these dots, or maybe just leave them, or maybe even touch each one with some stain on a toothpick.

It sounds like water-based stain is the thing to use under fiberglass and CPES.

With CPES, you don't need any sort of filler, and no worries about blotching with the stain, as the wood is well-sealed. When you see it absorb into the wood, it's a good feeling!

18shamic
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby 18shamic » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:54 am

Hi,
I have been super busy over the last few weeks so I haven't been able to post anything or do much on the boat: but my schedule frees up for the foreseeable future so I should have more time to work on it. Over the last couple days I have been fixing some cracks in the boat, and soon I should be ready for fiberglass. Next weekend (for sure this time) I will be putting CPES on the boat. I was going to do at least two coats, maybe three depending on how much we have. I have been reading the inboard motor instillations book, and I have been preparing to drill my shaft hole. I have also been looking at the Crusader 5.7 MPI SD and been thinking about pairing it with a zf 63a transmission. I know the transmission is overkill, but i did not want to be at the Maximum hp input on the 45a. If anyone has suggestions, I would be happy to take any advice you might have. Should I drill the shaft hole before or after I fiberglass? Thank you for all the support and help!

Thank you,
Michael
Last edited by 18shamic on Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jamundsen
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby jamundsen » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:39 pm

If you drill before you fiberglass you can then glass an insert into the shaft hole. I did not do this but wish I had. It will protect your wood in the shaft hole.
John Amundsen
Monte Carlo
Lakeland,Fl

Work tends to get in the way of boat building

Brian
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:53 pm

18shamic, successive coats of CPES is just a waste of time and money. I suggest you call Smiths; they are a great resource. You have only one opportunity with CPES, because once it penetrates and dries, layering more on top doesn't really do anything that resin won't do. The technique is to mix small batches and keep laying it onto an area until it becomes shiny. This indicates it's fully absorbed. You can move ahead, as long as you get back to the earlier areas constantly until they are shiny. It takes a few days for CPES to get really hard. After that, scuff and fiberglass.

As far as the trans and engine, you made the right choice. I went with an Ilmor combo for my 28' Monte Carlo, with a 63A. A nice package, which will allow the engine to sit flatter and (in my case) getting it to fit under the hatch without modification. If you haven't bought either yet, it's a very clean way to go. The Ilmor is about 430 HP, but my boat is going to operate at 6,200', so net HP of about 350.

You definitely want to drill all holes before fiberglassing. The shaft hole is kind of a big deal, and you don't want to be worrying about your finish. Also, as jamundsen says, you can lap the epoxy into the hole (no real need to deal with glass cloth, IMHO). I taped up my holes while glassing, and then painted in epoxy with a small brush (after CPES). Drains, rudder, shaft, strut bolt holes.

18shamic
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby 18shamic » Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:18 pm

So since I last posted, I have applied my first coat of CPES to the boat. It is shiny, and I only put one coat on it so far; when I put it outside to put the CPES on it, it was the first time where I had seen it in natural lighting. (when we flipped it it was about to snow) and It's beautiful. I have been doing a lot of math recently, and I have found that my driveshaft angle should be 11.78 degrees(Ish) so I am going to purchase a 12 degree strut, and drill the hole; in the Glen L motor instillation book, one of the ways to drill a driveshaft hole is to have your strut, and use it as a guide for your driveshaft hole. I was thinking about using this method. I plan on putting more CPES on the transom, as thats the only part that is not as shiny - but I do plan on putting a (thin) second coat of CPES on, to even everything out, and for piece of mind. (Thank you Brian, for saving me there) I have also found the point where the rudder will go - 6 inches from the transom, 1.5 inches toward port. (if I am mistaken, once again correct me) Once again, thank you for your help!

-Michael
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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby Bill Edmundson » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:32 pm

Outstanding! That is pretty!

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
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sscobra
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby sscobra » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:53 pm

Michael, looking really nice. I posted a reply a minute ago, but for some reason it didn't seem to appear, so I am posting it again. Excuse the repetition if the first post appears! I am concerned about the 12 degree angle strut you are considering. I think that is a little too shallow and it will potentially cause issues with prop clearance and engine placement. Most of the the Rivieras and Monacos use a 14 to 16 degree strut to get the engine placement correct. I used a 14 degree strut, only because I couldn't find a 16 degree angle one at the time. Doing so pushed the drive shaft hole farther forward in the hull, probably about 3 inches farther forward. This resulted in the engine being pushed forward. I am building a Monaco which is identical to the Riviera in that section of the hull. I am using a PCM 5.7L engine (very similar to the Crusader) with their down angle transmission. My engine ended up being right at the back of the front cockpit, right up against frame 4. I think the ZF63A transmission if bigger than mine and that will also push the engine farther forward. You might check out other Riviera builders, like Dave Lott, on the Glen-l website and see what they used. Your build is looking really good. Skip
Built the Glen-L Monaco, 2016.

18shamic
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby 18shamic » Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:31 pm

I was basing the 13 degree strut (it was a typo I meant to do 13 degrees) off of a 14 inch prop, and 52 inches between the output shaft of the transmission and where the prop should be. Now, this would make it a 7 inch radius, plus 3 inches of clearance, and 2 inches from the output shaft to the bottom of the boat, would make the small leg of the triangle 12 inches, the long leg 52 inches, and the hypotenuse 53.5 inches. And that should make the shaft angle 13 degrees - all of this is based on the back of the engine (coupled with the transmission (48.5 inches long total)) is resting against the back of the first cockpit. I think my mathematical reasoning is sound, but it should put the prop 3 inches away from the bottom of the boat. And i am slightly scared of higher shaft angles, because of what happened to aussiebrian. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/archive/t-31652.html Please tell me if that fear is unreasonable or if my mathematical reasoning is off. Thank you for all of your help!

Brian
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby Brian » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:31 pm

Michael, your pics look like my Monte Carlo bottom, except I continued to lam ply on the part to be painted. Nice! I know it's great to finally see the wood as it will be.

I hope you're planning to glass it all. I was trying to rationalize not doing glass at all (CPES + PolyU), but the Forum talked me into glass. SO glad I did it. Adds depth, smooths out imperfections, and makes it totally waterproof.

On the shaft hole, if you are using a 1" shaft I have a tip for you. Go to the hardware store and get a 1" chrome closet rod. It will fit your strut just like a prop shaft. I made an adapter to attach a 1-3/8" bit to one end, and used a hole saw that fit on the other end for the drive. Sounds Mickey Mouse, but trust me, this setup perfectly aligned the hole. The only other thing I did was to make a block with a V to hold the aft end of the shaft in place while frilling, and a block with the complimentary angle to the shaft to being the hole square. Took me a long time (about 3 days), but the hole came out very nice. I also am using a whip strut, so that helped the alignment a lot.

On the angle, I can't comment on your particular hull, but I could not find struts that were even close for the drop I needed, I think the whip is a 10 and the main is a 12, and I think my angle is something like 11. It was easy using the closet rod to get the pads for these two struts to be just right so the shaft angle and hole came out just right. I am going to have about 2" clearance on a 13" prop, which Acme prop thinks is fine. But I'm going to monitor the erosion on the bottom carefully, and if it starts, I'll put a piece of SS sheet there.

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sscobra
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby sscobra » Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:53 pm

Michael, I read as much of that post about aussiebrian's Riviera as I could stand, and it wasn't his shaft angle that turned out to be his problem. He drilled the shaft hole in the wrong location and his engine was about 8" too far forward in the boat, throwing off his center of gravity. After he re-drilled the shaft hole and moved everything back his boat performed perfectly. Your 13 degree strut might work fine. I was just letting you know that my 14 degree strut pushed my engine forward slightly and didn't want you to find out that later that your engine is too far forward. Just make sure you drill the shaft hole in the location indicated on the plans. My hole center line entered the hull about 45" from the back outside edge of the transom. That location fixes the location of your strut. Since my strut was 14 degrees instead of 16 degrees, it pushed my strut location back to where I have about 8.5" of space between the aft end of the strut and the front edge of the rudder. That is a little close but still should allow me to remove the prop without having to remove the rudder. With a 16 degree strut the distance is about 4" farther forward. With a 13 degree strut, that distance is about 2" closer to the rudder. Of course these number are dependent on the strut drop, which is 7.5" in my case. Skip
Built the Glen-L Monaco, 2016.

18shamic
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby 18shamic » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:24 pm

Hi,
Okay so quick update - I have done some light sanding, filled small holes/chips in the epoxy, and applied the second coat of CPES. I actually ran out of CPES; I only have the transom and the lower part of the port side to do. I have done more driveshaft calculations, and I ordered a 14 degree strut. I have attached them; I also found that the length lost going through the hull would be something like .37 of an inch, and I talked to the manufacturer and i found that the engine is 5.5 inches shorter than I originally thought. I will be using that length for the driveshaft space between the transmission and the shaft log, among other things. I have not had a lot of time recently; much less than i would like. I plan to get a lot done this summer. I hope to be flipped before school ends, so 5-6 weeks.

Thanks,
Michael

(Excuse my handwriting)
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Brian
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby Brian » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:44 pm

Michael,

Bear in mind, this is a critical measurement. Others have advised (including Glen-L) making a full scale layout. I used a 4'X8' sheet of white laminate board on a pair of saw horses and is was invaluable. A very small change can make a huge change in where your motor ends up and other things. I drew in the frames as well, to make sure the shaft hole didn't intersect in some inconvenient point. I drew the engine flange first, exactly where I wanted the engine, since that CG is critical (it's not the length of the engine, it's the CG). Then I laid out the rudder. From there, I located the prop, which gave rise to the strut angle, drop, and shaft hole location.

If you are going to have to tilt the strut to get the desired shaft angle, remember that it makes a difference whether you depress one end of its flange or raise the other end.

The thickness of your keel and lams also needs to be taken into account, as you've realized. I drew all that on my white board, in detail.

If you use a full scale mock up or drawing, measured from the actual hull, not the plans, you'll be totally comfortable that things are going to be right.

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jenko
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Re: Highschool Riviera Build Project

Postby jenko » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:49 pm

I did this calculation 50 or more times and came out with a different answer each time but finally got consistent answers you just need to be exact in your measuring. If you can draw it on cad that would help, but a full size jig is the way to go.Don't be fixed by your strut angle as you can adjust it a few degrees by counter sinking into the hull at a different angle. As I fitted mine with a " v drive" I needed 7.5 degree strut and whip strut for the longer shaft but 9 degree was closest I could get so i had to counter sink a bed in the hull at 1.5 degree
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