TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Questions about modifying a design

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JoeM
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TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby JoeM » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:45 am

I have a few design changes i'm thinking of making. First and potentially the biggest change is making it into a walk around deck by reducing the size of the cabin width. I realize this will make the interior a little more cramped but this is more a 1 or 2 day fishing trip type boat rather than a long term cruiser.

I know some designs count on the extra stability that the cabin adds to the hull. I'm a little concerned about changing it but it is kind of central to my design. I've included a couple rough pictures that hopefully explains what i'm thinking. I can also start the step further back behind the cabin and increase the step height the length of the cabin to increase the support higher up on the hull if the extra strength is required.

Even the bow area is walk around. The hatch is moved to the cabin roundtop and the anchor locker is decked over in the bow so a windlass can be installed.

I wasn't thinking a large walkaround area, maybe 12-14 inches in foot space with the space between gunnel/rail top and cabin will be about 10 inches. This is purely to make it easier to move all around the boat rather than trying to sneak across a 6inch rail to get to the bow and another 6 inch rail to get back into cockpit all while fighting a fish.

Do you guys think that this is a manageable change to make?
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curtgard
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Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby curtgard » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:12 pm

I like what you are trying to do but the True Grit design may not be the best choice. The cabin will end up being a little over 4' wide and the front berth area would be too small to be used for sleeping. You are also removing more weight forward(smaller front cabin area)from an area that you need to add weight with your other mods. A boat with a wider beam may be better suited for your intended use.

Curt

JoeM
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Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby JoeM » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:45 pm

I would love a wider beam but 8'6" is widest I can go. I need to be able to trailer and without special permits.

I am still working on my weight imbalance issue. Pretty confident I can overcome that. I'm playing with sizes and locations of all tanks and thought about adding ballast as well.

I do realize the cabin itself will be small. But I was pretty sure I could get over 5' wide and possibly close to 6'. I would just have to play with the height of where the walk around sits on the hull and possibly add a step from the cockpit to reach it. Rails or raised bulwark was going to be added to the top of the stock bulwark and depending on the look and stability I can angle the posts a little out. But even attached straight up I'm sure I can squeeze in a pathway at least 12",minus the area where the frame is exposed.

As far as the berthing, it was going to be bunk bed style with storage and head on the other side. Small to be sure, but adequate enough for short trip. We have a small truck camper so are aware of the reality of being in a small space. I was going to raise the round top a few inches and raise the foredeck with the anchor locker decking maybe 6 inches rather than drop the berth roof to put the path in. Also, two anchors and rode, I know it doesn't add that much weight but it's all the way forward so anything is increased by the moment weight. The added structure for the head, the storage area, and the bunks will increase weight pretty far forward as well. Also not a lot but it will help reduce the amount of imbalance I have to correct by other means.

I'm pretty sure I can come up with an interior layout that will work and figure out how to fix the weight imbalance. I just wanted to make sure the hull would remain stable enough with the cabin not attaching at same spot. If i'm understanding you correctly, you don't feel the actual structural integrity will be flawed just the functionality related to layout being so small and possible weight imbalances that will need to be accounted for?

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curtgard
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Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby curtgard » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:18 am

I took a measurement on my True Grit at frame 1 from inside of gunwale which is 85" across. This will be your measurement also as I build this per plans and feel the gunwale area is required for hull strength. So 85" minus 24" walkways minus 3'' for cabin side walls leaves 58" interior cabin width. The interior cabin width at the windshield will be 3-4" less. If you can make your cabin layout work with these measurements, I feel the hull would be ok as long as you don't make the gunwale area less. Maybe to help with your weight inbalance, put your fish hold box forward where the berth area would normally be located. You could then have a center line helm and your bunks could be fold down wall mounted.

Curt

JoeM
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Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby JoeM » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:00 pm

I appreciate the feedback Curt. I hear you about the framing attachment point from cabin/gunwale needing to be at the same location as stock plans for best structural stability.

I changed my layout using the figures you gave me. I'm estimating that the gunwale is at least 6" wide and using the figures you gave me there is still room to hit the 8'6" beam but i'll stick with the 6" figure for now.

I kept the gunwale at the same height as standard but added a bulwark/rail above using 2x2 posts 16" on center flush with the side of the hull. These are only 24-36" tall. This leaves almost a 15" spacing between the rail/bulwark and the cabin on top of the gunwale. I added two steps (at least 10"x10" about 8-10" tall) from the cockpit to the gunwale path. Placing the walkaround portion on the gunwale meant that I could keep the cabin at ~61" after taking the cabin walls into consideration. A little thinner towards windshield from what you're saying, but 1.5-2 inches each side doesn't seem like that will be too hard to plan around. When you said the cabin sides are 3 inches, are they 3 inches each, or 1.5 inches per side for total of 3 inches of width on the design? I assumed 3 inches total, so if you meant 3 inches each side I will lose another 3 inches. That will just mean a path between the pilothouse of 21" instead of 24" or I lose a little of the path on each side of gunwale Which is fine as I only really need 12" not 15".

These pictures don't have the added bulwarks/rails just right yet. still playing around with the design of them and scupper holes etc. But this does give a decent idea of what i'm picturing.
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truegritwacockpitlookingforward.jpg
truegritwabowlookingaft.jpg

JoeM
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Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby JoeM » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:28 pm

I may have jumped the gun, but I just purchased the True Grit plans. Also a few more books, though the books were going to be purchased anyways(Inboard Motors and the Electric and electronic bible). I'm 95% sure I can make it work with my proposed changes but I feel like I need the actual figures to effectively model it and make sure it works. I feel like I now have a pretty good layout for function and weight balance but without knowing exact dimensions of the spaces between frames and under the sole, I won't know if everything will fit in that layout as I have it designed. And as nice as Curt has been giving me some exact dimensions off his boat(Thanks again!), I'd figured I should just shell out the money for the plans.

My plan is to take the full plans and create a 3d model in SketchUp to get the exact dimensions of every piece. Once I complete that and find a way to make the design work, I want to layout temporary boards/tape on ground/tape on walls and visualize how the space will work in practice. Things like, is the companionway wide enough, the seats high enough, the berth long enough, head spacious enough, engine and battery compartments safe size, and the hatches large enough (among other questions).

If I am able to accomplish that I will move onto the actual build, of which will take years. This might be overthinking/designing it but with the limited funds I have I need to limit my mistakes of design as I'm sure there will be enough in the actual build I will need to fix.

I have considered doing a smaller boat but I will have a tough time building a larger boat while operating a boat at the same time. I kind of only have the funds for one or the other and my long term plans won out(I will have a site/blog up soon where i'll lay out my goals and plans). I keep reading people giving advice to new builders to imagine the boat they want to have and add a few more feet, so I did just that. :D

JoeM
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Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby JoeM » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:26 pm

Just wondering if I should start a new thread in a different forum for my 3D "build" or just keep this thread going since i'm using the "build" to figure out how to make my design changes work. Or is nobody interested in a 3d design build and I should not post updates on it?

Just a note. My 3d build is CLOSE to accurate. Close enough for figuring out my design. It is not accurate enough for anyone to build the boat from my file and I am only posting pictures not the file itself anyways. I do take the "patent/royalty rights"(can't think of correct word at the moment) seriously.

At the moment I have the forms up, and frame #'s 1-7 up. Going to work on transom and stem next. Not sure how well the stem will turn out since I can't trace the curve onto the computer but i'll manage to get it fairly accurate.
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3dbuildpic1.jpg

JoeM
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Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby JoeM » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:53 am

Not perfect but I think it'll serve my purposes.
3dbuildpic4.jpg

JoeM
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Location: Santa Clarita, CA

Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby JoeM » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:45 am

I'm going to continue posting this 3d build here until I am confident with the design changes or someone lets me know to post elsewhere.

I'm almost done doing all the framework. It's difficult getting the curves just right so as I said before it's not 100% accurate but close enough to get within inches to judge space.
3dbuildpic 7.jpg
3dbuildpic 6.jpg
3dbuildpic 5.jpg

I still need to finish the side battens and the sheers at the transom bulwark before I can move on to plywood.

I'm trying to remember where I saw it, but somewhere someone was talking about where to place the inboard engine if you extend the length. I believe the consensus was to essentially keep the location as spaced from the transom on the original length, correct?

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby Bill Edmundson » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:15 am

Joe

This is a good place to post at this stage. When actual construction starts you may want to put that in Power Boats.

Things are looking good! I did the same think on the Bartender.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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kens
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Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby kens » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:23 pm

quote " I'm trying to remember where I saw it, but somewhere someone was talking about where to place the inboard engine if you extend the length. I believe the consensus was to essentially keep the location as spaced from the transom on the original length, correct?"

yes,
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: TrueGrit/CC Walkaround

Postby Bill Edmundson » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:12 pm

Joe

I agree with Ken. Same location relative to the frames.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build


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