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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:46 pm 
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This issue is to the point where I want an answer. This is really maddening.

Prop program? Is this a commercially available computer program?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:07 pm 
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Location: Coastal Georgia
Yeah, I guess you could go and buy a prop program yourself, but why?
All the prop shops already got it, so does the prop makers. There is a very simple one on boatdiesel.com.
So far, I have had my boat run through the program of:
boatdiesel.com; my local propshop; Michigan Wheel; Acme propeller; OJ propeller; a marine architect; and a highly recommended shop in the northeast.
They all say that my boat really is light, ought to go faster, and the prop is cavitating. I have already asked them all to look into their crystal ball and get me a idea........ Nothing! :?
There nothing left but to take ideas from a gynecologist.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:49 pm 
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You're getting RPM now. Back pressure Ain't It. It's some thing "downstream" of the engine.

Bill

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:51 pm 
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"downstream" ?
d'you mean aft of the bellhousing?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:53 pm 
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Yes.

Bill :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:57 pm 
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OK, then what?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:04 pm 
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Ok, just for my clarification is this a basic description of the system


Engine ----- Tranny --- Stuffing Box (Shaft Through Hull) ---- Skeg (Shaft Holder below the hull) ----- Prop

If this is correct, we are left with only 2 possibilities.

Do the stuffing box and skeg have bearings?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:43 pm 
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Ken,

Is the engine located per the plans with the full cabin? That would mean you're 500-600 pounds light up front. A couple of guys walking around won't change that. If the bow is riding way high the force of the prop is going down, not back.

Bill

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:05 am 
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Location: Coastal Georgia
There is no skeg, and no cabin, it is center console with streamline bronze strut. I do have a cutlass bearing in the shaft log as it passes thru the keel.

Bill:
I mounted the engine per Glen-L plans and per instructions per the 10% stretch. It even looks like it rides with the bow on the water. Look at a side view of it running, the keel is wetted all the way up to forward frame. I dont think it is a issue with a light bow, if anything a heavy bow. There was a Double Eagle from Michigan several webletters back, check it out, that one rides much more bow up. It was a painted blue hull. I have ridden that one, he was full of fuel the day I took those pics, so maybe his fuel weighted the stern down. It holds 60 gallons right behind the engine.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:55 pm 
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I just went through most of this . . . First a couple of guys are mixing up ventilation and cavitation. Ventilation is from big air pockets, cavitation is the little teeny tiny air bubbles due to negative pressure, they pop and cause pitting. Ventilation is that big rev deal and the boat will go nowhere. You are not experiencing that.

You want the bow up, even with an I/B shaft angle. Boats are more typically affected by wetted surface than shaft angle, mo stuff in da wawa is bad.

I think you need to start over with some spec stuff.

Engine age? 3.0 right? 135 Mercruiser from an I/O?

I saw that you said you were getting poorer fuel efficiency at 3000 RPM than you should wide open throttle or something similar. Exactly what is your fuel consumption at 3000 RPM , exactly in GPH. Do you have a flow meter? Also at WOT RPM. Fuel use is a very good indicator of horsepower made. Unless the timing is way off, or it is smoking, or you have a ton of blowby, if you burn fuel you make horsepower . . .

Also, one very important thing, are you absolutely 100% positive that your tach is correct? Absolutely, 100% positive? No doubt whatsoever? Checked with a shop tach or photo tach?

Driveline issues would usually present other symptoms, for example if it was the bearing in your shaft log it would be screaming bloody murder. You could take that out and try it with just the strut's bearing too. If it was the strut bearing, it would've failed by now. Anything that can take that much load out (assuming that you are not getting full power now) is gonna be telling you about it . . . ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:01 pm 
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Location: Sydney Australia
G,Day Kens. Firstly I think 28mph. is pretty reasonable from your set up.
If I can believe your tacho and GPS your combination is most efficient when the pitch to diameter ratio is roughly equal at 16x16 and 16x15, and I dont believe your 135hp. engine has anything left to give.
To achieve 22mph at 3000 rpm you will need to compromise a bit on acceleration by giving up some of the propeller efficiency. my best bet would be as follows 1.5:1 gear ratio 12.5x14.5 prop should give 22 mph at 3000 rpm and 32 mph at 4400 rpm.
Fixing boats is easy Fixing women hard.
Regds Ron

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:39 pm 
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QC wrote:
I just went through most of this . . . First a couple of guys are mixing up ventilation and cavitation. Ventilation is from big air pockets, cavitation is the little teeny tiny air bubbles due to negative pressure, they pop and cause pitting. Ventilation is that big rev deal and the boat will go nowhere. You are not experiencing that.
The ONLY way I can break the prop loose from the water, or ventilation, is HARD throttle in reverse, and hard throttle at that

You want the bow up, even with an I/B shaft angle. Boats are more typically affected by wetted surface than shaft angle, mo stuff in da wawa is bad.
I tend to believe my bow rides wetted on plane, bilge water collects under the engine on plane. Matter of fact, bilge water stays forward of garboard plugs on plane. This may be a tell-tale point of interest here.

I think you need to start over with some spec stuff.

Engine age? 3.0 right? 135 Mercruiser from an I/O?
1986 engine by seriel number, fresh rings, bearings, valve job for this build though. Already cut the element out of a oil filter looking for metal flakes, looks clean.

I saw that you said you were getting poorer fuel efficiency at 3000 RPM than you should wide open throttle or something similar. Exactly what is your fuel consumption at 3000 RPM , exactly in GPH. Do you have a flow meter? Also at WOT RPM. Fuel use is a very good indicator of horsepower made. Unless the timing is way off, or it is smoking, or you have a ton of blowby, if you burn fuel you make horsepower . . .
Timing is good. Fuel flow @ 3000 is 3 gal in 35minutes, and 21mph. My target for the project build was 18kts and 3gal/hr. I may have to accept 3gal in 50 minutes, but I am right now at 1gallon in 10 minutes=6gal/hr at cruise. That seems awful high.
If you do a math formula for fuel burned=HP; then how much HP am I making at 3gal/35 minutes?

Also, one very important thing, are you absolutely 100% positive that your tach is correct? Absolutely, 100% positive? No doubt whatsoever? Checked with a shop tach or photo tach?
Tach checked against a optical tach @3600.

Driveline issues would usually present other symptoms, for example if it was the bearing in your shaft log it would be screaming bloody murder. You could take that out and try it with just the strut's bearing too. If it was the strut bearing, it would've failed by now. Anything that can take that much load out (assuming that you are not getting full power now) is gonna be telling you about it . . . ;)

Driveline is smooth & quiet. Well, the tranny does have a little gear whine barely off idle., but it sounds like common gear whine; not sound like making metal.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:50 pm 
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Ron Filsell wrote:
G,Day Kens. Firstly I think 28mph. is pretty reasonable from your set up.
Yeah, sort of. 28mph aint bad for a 25 footer, but, it is bad at merely 2480lbs though. My light weight should allow better fuel consumption.
If I can believe your tacho and GPS your combination is most efficient when the pitch to diameter ratio is roughly equal at 16x16 and 16x15, and I dont believe your 135hp. engine has anything left to give.
I am starting to believe my 135hp engine in only making 110hp.
To achieve 22mph at 3000 rpm you will need to compromise a bit on acceleration by giving up some of the propeller efficiency. my best bet would be as follows 1.5:1 gear ratio 12.5x14.5 prop should give 22 mph at 3000 rpm and 32 mph at 4400 rpm.
I am looking strictly for a good cruise, I can care less about acceleration or a hole shot.
Fixing boats is easy Fixing women hard.
thanks for reminding me; the wife wants me to name the boat after her! And after all this, it may be appropriate.
Regds Ron


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:13 pm 
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Location: New Orleans
Do they make a dynometer (sp?) for boats? There are programs that take the general characteristics of your boat and spit out a required HP for a certain speed, I wish I had one.

It seems every car show that I watch they manage to pull the engine, rebuild with beautiful and super expensive hardware, put the engine back and still have time for the dyno all in 30 minutes... forgot about commercials, 23 mins. Although they are completely misleading the amateur gear head, it is still fun to watch.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:14 am 
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Well the fuel burned vs. horsepower thing is complicated despite my comments about it being easy to tell if she' making power if she's burning fuel. A conservative rule of thumb is 10 bhp per GPH, so you are making say 60 horsepower at 3000 RPM. WOT numbers are easier to compare as each hull is different etc. WOT at the correct RPM range takes the hull out of the equation. They are getting between 10.5 and 14 bhp per GPH. Carbed like yours, lower, and EFI's better. Definitely not that simple, but still a good indicator. Anyway. Your desired numbers are waaaay optimistic. Lets say 3 GPH is 30 bhp and I don't think a 30 bhp OB would move your boat at 21 MPH . . .

Edit: I just double checked some stuff and I can't find any boat that will even plane on 3 GPH . . .

Edit #2: I did find a couple of really light bay boats that will plane on 3 GPH. OBs, very light, maybe 1200 - 1500 Lbs. total weight. Of course they can trim too.

Also, you are getting 3.5 MPG which isn't bad considering that bow is being driven into the water, which I believe is part of the issue. There are very few 23 footers that break 4 MPG, and without trim and with the balance like it is I think she is doing fine actually. I bet you'd pick up 200 RPM with the bow up more. Can you move anything significantly heavy aft? Batteries?

Land & Sea makes a boat dyno: http://www.land-and-sea.com/prop-shaft-dyno/marine-dyno.htm

Image

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Last edited by QC on Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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