Glen-L.com

Hi guys,

After searching the net for a particular boat plan, I stumbled across a Hankinson design that is perfect !!! but no longer available

Can anyone give me some contact details for Ken Hankinson. I'd like to find out what sort of money he is chasing to sell his designs outright.

Has anyone else asked Ken about this ?

Seems to me that there are a lot of people chasing his designs, could be worth a few of us handing over a lump sum, buy our favourite plan, let Glen-L market them, and receive a royalty per plan sold. You'll always own the design, and be able to make as many boats as you like yourself.

Rather than standing around in a circle complaining about them not being available, or expecting Glen-L to hand over a huge sum to buy the plans, why don't we initiate something ourselves. It's been 6 months since he shut shop, if anyone was going to swoop in and buy his business, it would have happened by now...

Ken is in retirement, and unless someone gets proactive about taking these plans off his hands with some monetary consideration, they will probably be lost forever.

Thoughts ???

Warren.

Just out of curiosity, which set of plans were you interested in?

I never thought that I would see so MANY people upset that they could no longer buy plans from Hankinson. It's been amazing the number of enthusiasts of Hankinson's designs have filtered over to this forum since Hankinson closed shop. This has been an eye opener for me. But a few months ago, some of the boat building forum members tried something very similar that you suggested in your post. At least they were getting "proactive" about it. And I was in on it myself. As we discussed it, we apparently ruffled quite a lot of feathers over potential copyright infringement issues and it was the first time since I've been a forum member that I'd seen people get flaming mad here. As the moderator, I had to delelete some posts and warn some members because the arguments got so heated. I finally deleted that entire thread just so that peace could reign free again. This really is a superb little community here and the generall mindset is one that soars above the wizzing contests that I've seen so often on other forums.

But I'd also chosen sides in that debate because I too am an enthusiast, which as the moderator makes me walk a fine line in an effort to be fair to everyone. My side was and still is, that I feel your pain and I've gotta tell you that I agree 100% with you that there should be SOME way to aquire those plans.

Personally IMHO, the way that Ken turned off the lights, locked the doors and walked away is rather amazing but he must have had his reasons. We don't really know what his situation was/is and my opinion is that if he wants to be left alone to enjoy his retirement, he should be allowed to do so. He has that right. But I also feel that if he isn't interested in selling plans anymore and he's not interested in giving customers an alternative route to follow, then he shouldn't be too worried what's said on this forum about the situation and he also shouldn't be concerned with whatever steps we take to come up with a workable solution. Right now, I think the best plan of action would be to take it on a case by case basis. Each person that is looking for a particular set of plans should be able to post what it is that they're looking for and then we could set about finding either a used set or possibly another design from somewhere that meets the requirements. But that may seem to be a tall order.....who knows.....

In my own case, I was interested in some of the Barrelback plans that mimicked the old Chris Crafts Barrelbacks from the late 30s and early 40s. I was very saddened at the thought of those plans being lost forever. I discussed this with another member here who had a set of plans but at the time, didn't have the needed patterns. Locally here in my area, there is a handful of Chris Craft enthusiasts that I met at an antique boat show and they put me in touch with a gentleman that owned an original Barrelback. I was able to meet with that owner and I got to spend some time taking measurements.... every measurement that I could think of off of his original boat. After collecting all that info, I compared notes with the other forum member that had the Hankinson plans. I can't say that I believe Hankinson's Barrelback designs are all from the mind of Hankinson himself. Rather, and I'll go out on a limb here, I have to say that I truly believe Hankinson's Barrelbacks are a direct copy of the original Chris Craft designs right down to the placement of frames, battens, scantlings, etc. But while I was researching all of this, I discussed this with the other forum member mentioned earlier and I found that he was on exactly the same trail and he was actually way ahead of me in his research. He had found where the original CC plans could be bought. That's when we stopped worrying about Hankinson in this particular case, because we now learned that we didn't need to chase him when we could aquire the originals. But that's not always going to be the case with other designs. But after pouring all over the internet, perusing virtually any and all boating/yachting/cruising/nautical magazines that I can, I have to say that the number of truly original designs out there are really quite few. In reality, I'd say that the vast majority of boat plans are copies of copies that were copied from others. Copying boat plans runs through this field of interest in pandemic proportions. Most boat designers are little more than copiests. They most certainly take their inspirations from what they see others doing. And when large corporations such as Chris Craft don't worry about it, then Hankinson isn't go to lose too much sleep over it either. With all of the new CAD programs available these days, I can't see where it would be much of a stretch of the imagination to design boats from scratch. You could take off the specs from the design you like and the CAD program could then fill in the dimensions. There would/should come a point in time when paying royalties for other designs becomes more cost prohibitive than just starting clean. With a CAD program doing the hard work, I think that this possibility is within the reach of all of us.

So, in the end, possibly we could take this on a plan by plan basis and think tank it. I really personally don't want to see folks getting upset. So PLEASE, let's keep it friendly. But on the other hand, if some forum members come up with solutions that ruffle other's feathers, then we need to show a little reasonableness* and let each person's conscience be his own guide.

*reasonableness: a willingness to yield in the interest of keeping peace

_________________
Isn't it amazing!! The person that never has the fortitude to pursue his own dreams, will be the first to try and discourage you from pursuing yours.

Dave;

I agree fully that most, if not all, designs are at least influenced by the designs of others and at most are direct copies of the designs of others. Since it was mentioned already lets take the barrel back type boat that is often synonomus with the Chris Craft (CC) name. Was CC indeed the first with that design or was it another boat company such as Hacker, Greavette, W.J.
Johnston, or one whose name is long forgotten to time that was indeed the first to build that style of boat? Honestly who knows. There are only so many ideas out there, and even fewer good ideas, and when an innovation comes along, no mater what the field, it normally takes very little time at all before all in that field have incorporated that innovation into their own designs.

I believe that using the common practice of the past (and still in practice today) to "borrow" ideas and to use them in creating a "new" design is likely the only way that some of these designs will be available in the future. Taking another companies product and reverse engineering it to see how it was created is a route many companies have taken to keep up with and sometimes surpass their competition. Microsoft is an excellent example of a company that has choosen the reverse engineering of competitors products route to gain market position.

This IMO is a topic that needs to be discussed before it is too late and the designs are gone for good. Just my 2 cents on this.

P.S. Dave I am a mod on a Nova site ( http://stevesnovasite.com/forums/index.php? ) so I fully understand the knife edge that a mod must walk when posting to an interesting thread...taking a position can and often does come back to bite you Anyway Dave your doing a wonderful Job over here.

Hi Dave,

It was the Snake Shooter design / plans / patterns I was chasing.

You are exactly right in what you say, it takes only a little effort to get something started, but unfortunately it tends to be the same people who are organising things.

I own a huge fishing website in Australia, so I know how something can be misconstrued and start a bunfight. Obviously this is not my intention, just an observation that so many people here were passionate about keeping the Hankinson designs available. What better place to administrate that from than the only Hankinson dedicated website.

Another alternative to buying the designs is to approach Ken and ask as a group, whether we could administrate the distribution of his stock plans, with a royalty going to him for each plan. Obviously the costs of blueprint copying, website administration would need to be allowed for. However, this would potentially give him an income stream through retirement, greater than what he will get if he just offloads his designs to the first person who offers him a lump sum.

You guys obviously have a greater level of contact with Ken, has anyone spoken to him about this ?

I'd say all he is fearing is having to answer questions from builders. That's where the forum can take over. He just sits back, answers a rare question from whoever is going to administer the project, and collects his cheque each month...

If anyone is concerned about not being able to speak to Ken, then they don't buy the plans..simple as that.

However, from what I understand of his plans and patterns, most semi-experienced builders will be able to nut them out, and for those who need assistance, the forum community is here.

I'm only trying to suggest possible solutions for the problem, all comments are welcomed and encouraged.

Cheers

Warren.

I'm not in the boat plan business of course but a few months back, Barry and I had a conversation over the phone that was quite enlightening. Neither Hankinson or Glen-L makes much of anything moneywise on the plans themselves. They're basically loss leaders that stir up interest in this hobby and the Glen-L company (as an example) keeps groceries on the table by selling other things...ie: books, epoxy and other supplies. Since the plans were not a real money maker for Ken in the first place, an offer to pay a royalty sounds good to the uninitiated but I can almost guarantee you is not going to get Ken's attention......which is sad, actually. It would still interfere with something he's wanting to do really badly and that is to walk away from it all and not be bothered. I really think his freedom and time from it all is more valuable than pretty much anything that we could offer reasonably. Barry said that one of the things that Ken was looking forward to was the time to travel. In order to enjoy traveling, you have to leave worries behind 100%.

Being a small business owner myself, I learned a long time ago about the amazing similarities among ALL small businesses regardless of products or service. The business end of things is virtually the same between a self employed plumber and an oral surgeon. Looking at my own business, I have to say that I've done it for so long that it certainly is NO fun anymore. Oh yeah, I enjoyed it for about 5 years in the beginning but the last 5 years have been a case of spending a lot of time taking stock of my situation and asking myself just exactly what do I want to do in the future. For one thing, my business has always been undercapatalized. Even now, I stay with it only because it's keeping the roof over my head but every day, my disgust for it grows and grows. It has now, because I hate it so much, gotten to the point that I haggle with new customers from a position of power rather than the desperation I had when I was young and hungry and needed work so bad that I would agree to anything. Now, I charge more than my competitors, argue with unreasonable customers rather than fold to pressure and my business is making good money...relatively speaking. And yet, I still want to get the hell away from it. Trust me when I say that I truly understand burnout. And yet, I have a good business and very good customers. However, as is the case with ALL small businesses and their owners, there is always a period of several years where the business is a major ball and chain. No business gets off the ground without 10 times the work of a normal job. The office feels like a prison, the responsibilities involved feel like an overwhelmingly oppressive load that cannot be put down and everything else is an endless burden. There is always an absolutely amazing number of things vying for attention....things that will NOT wait but need decisions and action RIGHT NOW!! In my own case, because my business deals with making people's yards look their best, I end up working away my summers. If I want any nice weather to relax in, I have to go to Florida or Mexico in the winter. I never get to go to the lake during the summer. I never get a summer vacation. I'm doing good just to squeeze in a free weekend. Then mix in the cashflow problems and sooner or later I'm asking myself: "Why in the world am I doing this?" It's at this point I will start looking for a way out and then decisions have to be made. The first is: "How to I lock the doors without hurting my customer's feelings?" The answer is: I DON'T! Whenever the announcement is made to leave the business, all the people that have been depending on me for all these years, will be up in arms because we've had a good relationship for all this time and they just don't want to start over with someone new.

So now I have a new problem. I feel some kind of loyalty to the people that have been there for me through all the years I was struggling to get off the ground. I can't just walk away unless I cut off all communication completely. There's no way I'm not going to feel some sort of remorse but it would be much easier if I didn't have to think about it. My guilt will last about halfway to the first rest area on the way to Cabo. I know that if I leave my customers, they WILL survive. They did before I came along. It really is the path of least resistance and that's something that I'm desperate for now. However, if I get involved in any way, my guilt will come back too. Then I'll do more than I planned, spend more time than I wanted and I'll start giving up things that I now was going to take the time to enjoy. Nope! It's my turn and anyone that doesn't like it can take a long walk on a short pier for all I care.

I don't know Ken Hankinson personally. I've only ever had one conversation with him on the phone and my impression of him was that he was suffering from burnout too. I can't say that he was rude or unfriendly because he wasn't. He was very nice. But he had a real obvious lack of enthusiasm that was probably only apparent to me because I've been there. I understood and therefore I picked up on it when someone else may not have.

So I really believe I'm being honest when I say that, in all likelyhood, Ken could not possibly care less about any royalties because that would entail involving himself in the business once again and this is what he wants to stay away from. This is also the very same reason that I said before that I HONESTLY believe that Ken doesn't care one penny's worth about any copyright infringement issues. Financially he's made what he's made from the business. He's not going to expend any more effort because to do so would be like once again having his nose rubbed in the poo poo that he's been trying so hard to leave. He just doesn't care!! Trust me on this.

So I'm going to take the same stand that I did before when this issue got heated. I say: Copy Ken's plans to your heart's content and don't worry about it. Pass them around until everyone's happy. Then buy all your supplies from Glen-L and let's build boats.

If anyone flames me, please do so AFTER you read this entire thread because this is where I'm coming from.

Breammaster, Dude thanx. I'm glad you brought this up. Really! I hope we can find your Snake Shooter plans.

_________________
Isn't it amazing!! The person that never has the fortitude to pursue his own dreams, will be the first to try and discourage you from pursuing yours.

Dave,

Since I'm not a small business owner - you might want to skim this (or just remove it - as hogwash)

Since your business is established and making a profit, you have certain assets that are not capital, but can be bought and sold. Companies often sell business units, customer lists, etc. You have established value in the market place by your reputation. The tricky part (I think) is to associate that value with the company and not necessarily with the owner/employee. If you find a young hungry fellow that is willing to take the problems and responsibilities (some or all). You have then moved the company into a new mode of doing business. You get more options when you change the company in this way. The tricky bit would be to find the right person - someone who can match your work ethic and someone you get along with.

I think boat plans are entirely different. They have value in themselves, but the profit margin (so it would seem) is detestable. If the plans were converted to electronic form, the cost of distributing them would be greatly reduced. Nice things like having full-size patterns would be lost in the process. Most people just can't plot drawings of an arbitrary size. Others might just plug the electronic drawings into their CNC machine and have the parts manufactured directly from the plans. Even if they were in PDF it would be good enough for some people. The work of creating electronic versions of the plans would not be insignificant. Once a decent boat design is released electronically into public domain, I think quite a few may start to be built. The mouse series has gained considerable popularity - not because it is necessarily the best 8 foot boat design, but because the plans are free and they can be produced very cheaply. I'm not sure how much added benefit you get from being a "full service" shop, but I'm sure it is perceived to be something that keeps Glen-L in the business of selling their designs and plans. Do you have any idea about how they feel about having competing designs available in the public domain?

Dave, don't know you, never talked to you, but after reading your post this morning, I feel as though I know at least a part of you.

Been there, done that fits. Being a small business owner for 30 years I can relate, FOR SURE. It ain't easy being easy, and in many ways my customers want me to be EASY. Yep, push me around so as I make NO PROFIT, yet if I close the door they will screem, YOU LET ME DOWN. I did close the doors in 96 when in the Hardware store business, and you should have heard them SCREEM. Lucky for me I had opened another business a few years before 1996 so had such to keep me going. Most folks have NOT A CLUE that the owner doesn't have total peace of mind even when the business is close for the holiday. YEP, it is still on your mind. NOW DON'T GET ME WRONG, I LOVE MY BUSINESS, MOST OF THE TIME, but sure do UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU COME FROM DAVE.

I will be thinking of you, and I DO, WISH YOU WELL. Use your good ole COMMON SENSE, you CAN and WILL win.

Dale
Indy, a corn field with a race track in the middle.

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I AM ALWAYS DOING THAT WHICH I CANNOT DO, IN ORDER TO LEARN HOW TO DO IT. ~ Pablo Picasso 1881 - 1973

Dave

I hear ya. I have been in buiness for 12 years and fortunately still love it most of the time. Fortunately my business changes often and keeps things interesting.

I completely understand Ken retiring, eventually enough is enough. My beef is how he did it. I know for a fact that he spent several months trying to sell his business (personllay to friends of mine) , all the while taking money from people for study plans knowing full well he was going to let them hang out to dry. That would be like you and I taking money from people for our services knowing full well we had no intention of delivering. Would a little heads up from Ken been so bad?

By the way, I agree with you with the copyright issues. I don't think he is interested.

My 2 cents.

Eric

I can relate to what many of you are saying. As the sole owner of a plumbing business who rides harleys with a surgeon who owns his own business you would be amazed that we share the same problems. (Of course I would never trade places with him cuz I couldnt stand the pay cut...but aside from that)...

Hopefully Glen-l will be able to come up with some additional plans that will suit many of the guys looking for Hankinson type plans. I dont even know if Glen-l still designs more boats or not.

I suppose some marine architect might jump on the bandwagon and make some similar designs who knows.

One thing is refreshing: Ken might have never known how much his plans were appreciated by others. When you are in business you almost always hear the negative but rarely the possitive. Now that he has closed all the possitives should come out and he can finally realize that he has indeed had an impact in peoples lives. (A possitive one at that)
Steve

Yes Glen-L is indeed still designing new boats none the least of which is the new Gentry and I believe the Monty Carlo is also a farily new design...both are beautiful boats IMO.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to blow off a little steam this morning since we're on a rant about small businesses anyway.

At the end of September, I replanted grass seed in a yard for a Doctor that I work for. The day I planted, I personally watered all the seed and fert in myself. I wanted to make sure that it got done correctly. This was after I aerated it myself. Also, the customer has an irrigation system and he has kept it on a timer that gives the yard a good soaking 3 times a week.

Now a month later, there are huge areas that have NOT germinated and I've already taken the man's $700 for the labor and materials. He's livid and mad at me. I've done everything correctly....I should know, hell I've been doing this for that last 15 years. But this is a classic example of one of the downsides to this business. The only thing that's going to make this guy happy is if I redo the entire job and all at my expense. Well HELL. There goes any profit I made on that job. When I was young and brand new at this, I would have happily redone it because I was at the beginning of my learning curve. I took the attitude that I would come out on the next job. But nowadays, I just don't need the practice anymore.

Combine this with the fact that while gas prices have risen dramatically, seed and fert prices have also, not to mention labor for my helper, because of the competitiveness of this business, my price to this man was exactly the same that I was charging in 1992.

It's just not worth it anymore. I really think that this is a classic example of the type of problems that caused Ken to just walk away. I know that this is what I'd really like to do right now.



LOL, that made my morning.

_________________
Isn't it amazing!! The person that never has the fortitude to pursue his own dreams, will be the first to try and discourage you from pursuing yours.

Hang in there Dave. This wont be your last bad day in the business, but the best news it that it wont be your last good day either.

I am thankful that the ups outweigh the downs but I have certainly had my share of the downs. I am sure we could share some great stories. What kind of beer do you drink ??? LOL

If you ever get down the Atlanta way stop in.

Until then, keep it up ...get it behind you and get back on course.

I will just keep on plumbing until I find a way to build boats for a living while hanging my hat in NH or ME or Montanna. I might even take up fishing !!

Steve

Actually, I'm going to have to move this thread over to the "Miscellanious" forum. That's because we've gotten way off topic and I'm to blame.

Ok, I got out to inspect the Doctor's yard today. It seems that he took a 3 week vacation to Germany and turned off the irrigation system before leaving town. DOH!! No wonder the grass aint growin! His wife had a Freudian slip, spilled the beans and told on him. But if she hadn't been standing there I would've been faced with either agreeing to eat it all at my cost or lose the customer.

Will I redo the yard? Absolutely!! ...and all for the paltry sum of 3.5 pennies per square foot. Yup, I'll do that every day of the week but I'm sure happy I'm not having to do it for free. However, he didn't agree to paying for the redo. So we're going to water the heck out of it for the next 3 weeks and see where we stand then. I just hope all that seed I put out didn't wither up and die.



Yeah, that's what I've been doing for the last 15 years. Really, it's the only way to cope with it. I've been slowly grooming this business for the day when I do quit. I want to get it ready for a potential buyer to just step in and take over. I have a nephew that's 17 years old right now. He's been wanting to start his own lawnbiz and he's been asking me a lot of questions. He's a really, really good kid and a very hard worker. Best of all, he's not a know-it-all. He listens to me and then does what I've suggested. If he does well with his new start-up, I'll leave my lawnbiz to him when I get out. I'm hoping that that will be sometime in the next 2 years.

So yeah, I fully understand why Ken Hankinson locked up the doors and left town. He couldn't find anyone to take over and it was the only other way to get completely free.

_________________
Isn't it amazing!! The person that never has the fortitude to pursue his own dreams, will be the first to try and discourage you from pursuing yours.