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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:47 pm 
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Location: tarpon springs fl
kens wrote:
For some reason? this reminds me of a girl I used to know..........

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:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:35 pm 
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Location: Lander Wyoming
Wait...isn't that Gayle standing on her head? ...damn I'm getting thrown off again!!!!

Steve
:? :oops: :twisted: :lol: :roll: :wink: :!: :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:40 pm 
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Oh Steve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

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I told my wife we needed a three-car garage for my projects...she told me to ask her for permission next time before I buy a house.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:42 pm 
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She is still kickin herself for not throwing me in when she had the chance!
Steve :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:44 pm 
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Location: Owasso, Oklahoma
You need to plan on G5 cause I want to see a rematch!

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I told my wife we needed a three-car garage for my projects...she told me to ask her for permission next time before I buy a house.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:18 pm 
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Location: Wilmette, IL (Just outside Chicago)
Wow, really some gorgeous instruments here!

The center strip in my sisters Zebrawood is wenge, as are the bindings. Difficult to bend on a pipe, bends wonderfully in the form. Very porous and splintery stuff.

I use duct sheetmetal slats in my bender. Any sort of a slat will do wonders over free bending, you get support on both sides of the wood this way. I built a bending machine that uses lightbulbs as the only source of heat. Works great, but having a timer and a dimmer is a must, ir fires will ensue.

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Built a thickness sander too, cause I didn't have $2500 for a crappy one. I spent about $120 in parts on this one.....works well, but is slow. Bet it will be getting plenty of use when I start my boat.

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As for the padauk, I rather enjoy it. Its the zebrawood I am more worried about, has proven almost deadly toxic to certain people, and you never know if its you until you try it. I found padauk strong, vibrant, easy to bend, easy to scrape/carve/sand, has a pleasnt cinnamon odor when sanded or cut, but the dust gets EVERYWHERE, and stains everything. Literally stains and doesn't come out. I do like it, however.

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So, my big brother was playing guitar and I figured I'd try it too.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:34 am 
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Location: Bethel, NC
Hi Ken
Nice looking bender that you have there. Do you use heat lamps inside to heat things up?? I think that would be a cool thing to build and reasonably cheap to do so. On your sander do you have infeed and out feed rollers? I had one that was a manually pushed many years ago but it you slipped the wood would fly out and knock the hell out of you so I quit using it and threw it away.

I have two sets of the zebra wood and was going to use one for the classic but decided not to do that and just build another jumbo while I have the wood to do so. I have several pieces of wood that I resawed many years ago so will dig thru the pile and use some rosewood for the classic. I am sure my wood pile will get depleted pretty fast if I can keep up the building process okay. LMI has some beautiful woods to buy and some outrageous prices to go along with them too. If I could sell a couple of instruments to help pay for some other material that would make me happy too.

Keep up the nice work Ken.
Jimmy

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Location: Wilmette, IL (Just outside Chicago)
Thanks Jimmy! The bender cost me about $45. The base is made of plywood I had on hand, 3 CERAMIC bulb bases, scrap lamp wire, a $15 sauna timer and a $10 dimmer. I use two 300 watt lightbulbs, one in each bout. I use a 150 watt bulb at the waist. I use duct sheet metal for the slats, one for over and one for under the wood. The form is removeable, and I built one for each size guitar....kinda rough, but the wood sort of follows its own curve if you get it close. The form is lined with tinfoil to keep from scorching the plywood.

I heat the form up with the slats clamped in until they sizzle when water is spritzed on them. On a cold day in the garage, this takes 15minutes, which is the length of the sauna timer anyway. While the form is heating up, I spritz the wood with water and wrap it in tinfoil to prevent scorching. I pull the heated slats out of the form and immediately sandwhich the wood in the hot slats, then put the assembly on the form,a nd turn the lights and timer back on. The slats have already heated the wood enough to bend the waste of a jumbo, which is deaper than a dread, so I clamp that down first. I push slowly down on the waist with a section of stair rail, then clamp it in position. Bending the lower bout of any shape guitar takes all of 10 seconds in this form, its such a gentle curve. Then I tackle the upper bout. On a standard guitar, I slowly bend this over about 2 minutes, as it is a tighter curve. Bending like this allows the heat fromthe bulbs to heat the rest of the wood, and there is some heat transfer up the slats and through the wood. When it is bent down, I clamp it in place, and reset the timer for 15 minutes. Steam should be escaping the whole duration. If not, I turn the dimmer down a bit to prevent scorching, but keep it heated for 15 minutes. I then take the form off the base, and let the side cool in the form. Once cold to the tuch (20-45 minutes, depending onthe wood and the weather), I pull it out of the form.....no springback!

The cutaways are tougher....I use the same sort of clamp at the cutaway I use on the waist, but it is a LOT tougher. I need to design some sort of crank system with a more form fitting caul. Its a biznitch, but it works. I have really grown to like the cutaways, though, so I need to build a more proffessional form. I'll wait until I get more scrap plywood form the boat building...I have enough sides bent right now for 5 gutiars....2-3 years of building at the current rate.

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The thickness sander does not have an infeed table. Is it possible onthe one you had you were too aggressive? I can only remove about .010" at a time or it bogs down. I also get some pulsing, but if I run each one through twice reversing the wood between passes, there are no waves on the finished peice. It is slow and inefficient, but I only build one or two guitars a year. I spent a week thickness sanding enough wood for 12 guitars, and it is drying stickered in my house (3 years now,,,I have some zebra, flamed maple, padauk, and curly mango, as well as some sitka). When I get to this point on a boat, I will be planking the outer layer with mahogany, which I have very successfully planed down to about 1/8" with a 13" power planer I have...will go much quicker. Not even sure its worth the effort to go through a thickness sander with all the surface sanding I will have to do after its glued on....getting all the joints flush and sanding the epoxy from the edge-glued squeeze-out. I'll just have to remove the first and last 3" due to sniping from the planer, and the rest of the planer marks will get sanded off in hull prep.

I am excited to see yours coming along I still have no idea how the zebra will sound. I am using my own design of laminated braces too, which will have an impact. THe Padauk you've already seen sounds wonderfull withthe braces, but I am concerned about some structural isses...bridge keeps rotating. I might have been too aggressive with scalloping. Anyway, keep it up!

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http://www.nocturnalguitars.com

So, my big brother was playing guitar and I figured I'd try it too.
- Stevie Ray Vaughan


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:24 pm 
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Location: Bethel, NC
Sounds like you scalloped the mains to much if it is rotating on you. You might flatten out the bridge area if possible and then double up on the bridge plate under the bridge. This may cut the sound some but I don't think it will do much harm or even notice the change. I have done this on some repair jobs and it seemed to hold and work pretty good. Course use the light gauge strings on this type of problem until you can patch it up.

I went to Lowes this morning and gathered up all of the junk that I need to make two more forms and got the classic more or less done. Need to hang the springs and make the sliders for the bouts and waist but should finish this tomorrow. I am going to line the inside with foil also and then I got some 3/4" insulation batting I will install on top of the foil and see how this will work out. I am using two 250 watt brooder house infrared lamps installed in ceramic sockets and I also bought a temp gauge for a BBQer and will intall that to keep an eye on the heat level. The sockets have the pull chains on them so I can turn them off and on as needed. I am going to leave the bottom open as I think these lamps will get the metal boiling pretty fast. Total cost for one around $50 so not to shabby either. One thing I done on the classic waist was to under cut the form by another half inch as it seems this is were most of the trouble ends up being for bending. I should have done this on the jumbo but still they came out pretty decent fit. One of the sides on the first bunch got to low on the small end so had to heat up my pipe bender and rebend the waist out fairly flat then put it back in the main frame heater and it came out good then.
I am ready to put the neck and end blocks in on the sides and install the linings for the top and bottom for the jumbo. I am going to go ahead and make up the second set of zebra wood, as I have it sanded down to thickness, .095 on the sides and .110 on the back. So I will have two units going pretty close together. I am going to use some redwood for the top on one of them. I built one of these many years back and it rang like a dream and no problem in selling that one quick.
Keep up the good work at your shop and enjoy it all. I will take some photos of the building of the forms and post them later.
Jimmy

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:08 am 
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Well finished the classic side bender today and made a test run to see what happens. I made the unit 8" wide as the sides of a good classic should be 3.625 so at this rate I can bend both at the same time. I got a BBQ temp guage in the side of the box and it showed 150 but the top probe I have showed more than the 160 degrees and looks to be at least 170+ . I will have to see if I can find my other high temp meter for a more accurate reading. I goofed when I came in for lunch and turned the heat lamps off with my overhead lights so had to heat the unit up again.
I used some 3/4 insulation and then wrapped most of that in foil on the inside so it seems to work pretty good and I am sure the foil helps reflect the heat up too.
Can't see to much from this photo but will take a couple more shots once I pull the sides and see how they react.
I also grabbed some turn buckles and made me some side supports for the jumbo and got some more for the classic once I get the mold made for that. Always got something to do.
Jimmy
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Image

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:13 pm 
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Location: NH
Wow jimmy-
this thread really took off. been gone for the weekend and had to scroll back almost 2 pages to find where i posted :D
thanks for the info on the SS bands. looks like a good way to get multiples. i found over the years of building that i rarely was building the same exact instrument and ended up being more productive with the bending iron. a thing that i do in the building forms is cut out 4 the pattern on the bandsaw then stack plywood blocks between to stabilize the form. the one i picture has a few more bits as i used that one quite a bit thru the years.
i bought a guys violin shop and got quite a few good tops and backs that i used for mandolins but still have the forms.... know anyone who could use them? (bottom photo)
-Billy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Location: Wilmette, IL (Just outside Chicago)
I was thinking of building a violin, but have no idea how to even tune one up! Lookin good so far, Jimmy. I would still recommend a 15 minute timer on it. You never know if you got called away from the shop for what was supposed to be 10 seconds.....Every luthier that makes these things swears you should have a timer in it. ANyway, lookin good. I have been thinking of making another similar to the padauk all out of zebra...I have one set of sides and two backs. It would make a very interesting fingerstyle guitar I think...The shape I have designed has some incredibly rich bass coning out of it, and it is smaller than my jumbo.

You have some good suggestions there about the bridge, but I think there is more going on. There were some neck geometry screwups cause I was rushing to get it done (should know better by now!). The bridge is tall, which may be part of the problem as well. I was thinking of adding to the bridgeplate, but it's behind the bridgeplate that seems to be moving...there's a slight bulge right behind the curve of the bass side of the bridge. I think I made my laminated braces too thin, and might consider trying to add another lamination on the rear half of the x-braces to shore them up a bit. The center of the top is not sinking, especially since the intersection is shifted a little more forward since there is no sound hole.

Image

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This is the bracing in the curly mango guitar, but the same braces as the padauk....I cut and laminated them all at the same time. I think they are too thin. The ones on the black beauty, as well as the ones I am using on a macacuba jumbo, padauk 12 string, and another version of the padauk OM all have thicker braces, so I think they will be ok, but I will start with lights on all of them.

Keep the pics coming! I am great at taking pictures, but havent updated my site in a year....computer problems. I need to get back inthe habit again, especially once I start a boat.

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http://www.nocturnalguitars.com

So, my big brother was playing guitar and I figured I'd try it too.
- Stevie Ray Vaughan


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:12 am 
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Location: Bethel, NC
Hi Billy
For some reason Violins just never appealed to me to try and make one. I have repaired many of them and some real basket cases too that most people would just throw away. I always had the thought if it was made out of wood then it can be fixed, most of the time...it is interesting from the people here on the forum at the talent that is around but now showing up, GREAT....

Ken that bracing is way to light for your guitar it seems. The belly of the top is bowing up and that is one job that is hard to cure other than whacking it off and replacing the top with better bracing. When I used to do lots of repair work I hated to see these come in to the shop for repairs. A lot of times this was usually caused by poor bracing or leaving the guitar in a very hot car and letting the sun cook the hell out of it. Can't give you much advice other than cut if off and replace the top...

Anyway keep the info rolling in and photos to make it interesting.
Jimmy

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Got some work done today on both guitars but still slow going trying to get back in the groove once again. Nothing to exciting to report but most of everything seems to be kind of falling into place which is worth effort to get there. So here are some more photos.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Also while I am spouting off the 1/2" under cut on the side bender waist for the classic worked out real good and fit the form very nice. I should have done that for the jumbo as I think it would have gotten a closer fit but I still am happy with the results so far. I got the linings done on the jumbo and got the bracing trimmed on the back so that is ready to go on tomorrow. I tried a side cut on the classic neck which I never done before and will have to align the neck with the body and hope for the best. I am gluing up a foot for the neck so will get that glued in also. I need to work on the fan bracing and get it thinned down correctly and hope that it will sound decent and no belly raising either.
My old back is aching today so had to quit early.
Jimmy

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