Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Designs for inboard or outboard power

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gluedandscrewed
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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby gluedandscrewed » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:37 am

didnt the old redial military aircraft use alcohol/water injection to attain "military power" rating? mainly a boost from the water flashing to steam in the cylinder

upspirate

Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby upspirate » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:38 am

A lot of this discussion is aimed at automotive,lawn and equipment,and converted auto or inboard marine engines.

Most of the problems come from the older outboards,not the inboards.

They don't make a lot of new parts for the older Mercs and Omc much less those that are compatible with ethanol.

You are not going to put a supercharger nor high compression pistons in an old 5 HP outboard or a Mark 55 like some run on this forum.

The bad stuff happens because the way a lot of people use their outboards infrequently.

I have personally spent close to $1,000 getting my late model Mercury Optimax back in service after sitting too long with e-10 in it,and will probably have pains again after not using it last year while building my skiff.

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Dave Grason
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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby Dave Grason » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:49 pm

Ok, I have a question.

Just exactly what is the E-10 doing that the outboard motor doesn't like? And, at only 10% ethanol in the mix, I have to say that this seems to be a really small amount of alcohol that is getting the blame for some apparently big problems. I'd really like to get down to specifics here because when I get the Zip running (sometime this century - hey, it could happen) it's being powered by a 1963 outboard. You guys are saying that I'm going to have probs because of the ethanol. So I'd like to know ahead of time what I can do to address these before my first weekend on the water is ruined.
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kens
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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby kens » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:44 pm

gluedandscrewed wrote:didnt the old redial military aircraft use alcohol/water injection to attain "military power" rating? mainly a boost from the water flashing to steam in the cylinder


My understanding of that is, it is a heat absorbsion thing. the heat absorbed by the water injection allows you to introduce more fuel without overheating combustion temps.
Garrett had that for some time on their turbines, the TPE-331.

here is a quick link to a websearch on that. Why dont we just use water injection instead of alternate fuels??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)
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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby Nova SS » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:34 pm

gluedandscrewed wrote:didnt the old redial military aircraft use alcohol/water injection to attain "military power" rating? mainly a boost from the water flashing to steam in the cylinder



They also used Nitrous Oxide...AKA NOS or NAWZ as many of the fast and idiotic generation likes to refer to it as.

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kens
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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby kens » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:45 pm

Nova SS wrote:
gluedandscrewed wrote:didnt the old redial military aircraft use alcohol/water injection to attain "military power" rating? mainly a boost from the water flashing to steam in the cylinder



They also used Nitrous Oxide...AKA NOS or NAWZ as many of the fast and idiotic generation likes to refer to it as.


I never heard of Nitrous on those, I doubt it was available in the 1940's.
But they did have 145 octane and water injection on engines with turbos and superchargers running together.
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby Nova SS » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:46 pm

kens wrote:
Nova SS wrote:
gluedandscrewed wrote:didnt the old redial military aircraft use alcohol/water injection to attain "military power" rating? mainly a boost from the water flashing to steam in the cylinder



They also used Nitrous Oxide...AKA NOS or NAWZ as many of the fast and idiotic generation likes to refer to it as.


I never heard of Nitrous on those, I doubt it was available in the 1940's.
But they did have 145 octane and water injection on engines with turbos and superchargers running together.



Yes, yes it was. The Germans ran it for sure and I believe the brits did too.

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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby Bill Edmundson » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:49 pm

We inject steam into our combustion turbines during peak electrial demand in the power industry. It increases the air density and thus the turbines power. But, We still don't need water in our boat fuel.

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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby Nova SS » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:53 pm

Well it may have been the Germans only

Read down to the part on internal combustion engines. I used to have a book on the planes of the Luftwaffe when I was a kid and they listed various planes HP with and without Nitrous oxide. I had no idea what that was at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide

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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby Nova SS » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:56 pm


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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby Nova SS » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:59 pm

Back in the 70's and 80's you used to be able to buy water injection systems for your car. They were to help you run more timing/cam/compression then you could with the gas commonly available. It was supposed to help with pre-ignition / ping / detonation. I haven't seen them for sale in about 20 years.

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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby Caber-Feidh » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:17 pm

John K wrote:
Tom Drake wrote: If the reference to 2 cycle engines that run up to 25,000 rpm's is based on model engines, you must take into consideration that at the end of usage the tanks are emptied of fuel and it is recomended that an "after run" oil be cycled thru to protect the bearings from corrosion.


I always leave gas with Sea foam in the carb. Each engine make has different requirements for storage. I think Johnson list it as short term storage. I sometimes (if I remember) to squirt WD40 in the cylinders. That way you do not have to turn over the engine. It also burns off when you use the engine with little residue.

I do the same thing with all my lawn/garden motors.



Seafoam.... what a joke.

WD-40 is not fogging oil, it's a water displacer that also does a great job degreasing parts, and fails miserably as a high pressure lube. It's the sure way to brinell-damage your roller bearings, and stick rings.

Empty tanks metallic develop corrosion, develop varnish, and rust faster than a full tank, by the way.


On the other hand, I run a 572 on E-85 & methanol, that way the taxpayers of this fine country can subsidize my boat fuel expenses!

Thank you, by the way.

The effect of ethanol on aluminum is the most critical damage to prevent. It's not as hard on the metal as methanol, but over 10% it will do damage. The only winning cure is to build around the problem, rather than fight it. With the current admin in the white house, there is no way we aren't going to get this stuff forced down our gas filler, the "corn squeezin" is coming, may as well learn to use it. At least it's not MTBE.
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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby jcallends » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:55 am

Methanol damaging aluminum is a new one to me but may be true, I don't know? Enclosed is a picture of one of my model engines. This is an ABC engine, which means it has an aluminum piston and a chrome plated brass sleve. It regularly turns 18,000 RPM on 40% nitro fuel. It is now about 37 years old and shows no sign of slowing down. I have had it apart recently and the top of the piston does not have wear or erosion. The nitro in the fuel replaces methanol but at 40% there is still about 36% methanol, the rest is lube and yes it is over 20%.
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Dave Grason
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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby Dave Grason » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:33 am

Nova SS wrote:Back in the 70's and 80's you used to be able to buy water injection systems for your car. They were to help you run more timing/cam/compression then you could with the gas commonly available. It was supposed to help with pre-ignition / ping / detonation. I haven't seen them for sale in about 20 years.


As I recall, they came in strong with the advent of turbochargers because turbo tuners were finding out that they could squeeze more boost if they shot a little water spray in the fuel mixture. It was kind of a poor man's intercooler. Am I right on that, cause I'm saying this from memory? But it seems that intercoolers started coming into vogue and they were easier to work with than water alone. I want to say this was about 1984ish. I bought a brand new Volvo 242GT at the end of 1980. It was normally aspirated but the suspension/swaybar/shock combination worked SO WELL on this car that the whole package just cried for more horsepower. Volvo started answering the call by introducing the Turbo in '81 but I believe it took them until '83 or '84 to introduce the intercooled version. WOW, that was a very SWEET car. Anywho, I'm digressing. But I remember the tuner mags were talking about water injection on those Volvos before they fitted the intercooler.

Caber-Feidh wrote:Seafoam.... what a joke.


Really? I'm not argueing at all, I'm really curious. What is it that you don't like about it? The reason that I ask is that I've used this stuff before. It came really highly recommended. It didn't do what I was hoping it would do but then I could have had bigger problems. I was trying to use it to clean out crud from my fuel system on one of my commercial mowers awhile back. On that particular machine, there is what we call an EPA carburator. It won't come apart because it's riveted together. On older carbs we could take them apart, clean all the orifices and put in new gaskets for around $20. With the EPA carbs, we now have to remove the carb, toss it in the can and buy a new one for over $200. Ah, the price of capitalism. In some cases, we've been able to stall this process with Seafoam. ....or maybe not. I just don't know.

Caber-Feidh wrote:The effect of ethanol on aluminum is the most critical damage to prevent. It's not as hard on the metal as methanol, but over 10% it will do damage..


So, does the alcohol pit, corrode, weaken the aluminum? And if so, can you process the aluminum such as through anodizing to stop the problem?

I know I've seen a number of carburators, such as those from Demon, that are set up for methanol. If these carbs are meth friendly, they should certainly handle moonshine. So what have they done differently?

jcallends wrote:Methanol damaging aluminum is a new one to me but may be true, I don't know? Enclosed is a picture of one of my model engines. This is an ABC engine, which means it has an aluminum piston and a chrome plated brass sleve. It regularly turns 18,000 RPM on 40% nitro fuel. It is now about 37 years old and shows no sign of slowing down. I have had it apart recently and the top of the piston does not have wear or erosion. The nitro in the fuel replaces methanol but at 40% there is still about 36% methanol, the rest is lube and yes it is over 20%.


So this is a good example of alcohol NOT damaging the engine and it's very OLD and it's aluminum. So something has been done differently in the MFG process. I think that this is the solution to the alcohol problem.

It makes me think of when the lead was phased out of our pump gas and, for a while, many engines were suffering from valve damage. ....recessed exhaust valve seats, because the MFGs were taking advantage the lead's lubrication properties. But after that, we started seeing hardened valve seats in everything and the problem was solved. Now we're starting to get down to the nitty gritty.
Last edited by Dave Grason on Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help Get Ethanol out of Premium Gasoline

Postby Caber-Feidh » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:16 pm

Dave, go look at just what seafoam is! Being a Jewish Scotsman makes me genetically cheap (to a fault I am told)... it drives me nuts to see someone spending $4+ on a pint of coleman fuel, hydraulic oil, and alcohol.

"cheapskate guide to life" memo... the MSDS is your friend!

Seafoam is Pale Oil (64742-54-7) at 50% ish Heavy Paraffin Hydraulic fluid - Cracked Naphtha, 64742-49-0 at 30% ish (that would be coleman fuel) - and the balance is IPA 67-63-0 (isopropyl alcohol) Likely as a fuel drier-wait, wasn't the problem the alcohol in the first place?

Pretty cheap ingredients. The only effective cleaning solvent is the naphtha. May as well dump a pint of coleman fuel and dextron atf in the tank, because that is what this miracle-in-a-can is!


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Most model engines are a magnesium-aluminum alloy. My understanding is that the magnesium reduces the reactivity of the aluminum by creating a magnesium-aluminum oxide coating over the surface. Methanol dissolves the normal AL2O3 coat that protects the metal. In the case of a mag alloy the oxide layer is around 3x the thickness of that found in typical aluminum. Just to make it all worse, the alloy found in the typical outboard was a zinc-aluminum alloy. A metal even more reactive in the presents of Methanol than pure Al.

Model engines also run an oil-fuel ratio that is impossible to achieve as a practical application in a large engine. Further, castor oil does buffer the corrosive effects of the alcohol. They end a flight dripping with goop. Can you imagine running your boat with a 15:1 mix of castor and klotz? Sure to impress the DNR with that self-propelled stink-bomb.

In the case of methanol-rated carbs, they are hard anodized over a more corrosion-resistant alloy. They are still slowly damaged, but it becomes a matter of many years, not a single season. They are sold as "methanol resistant". Everyone I know has fitted a quick-drain to the carb to dump the bowl. Methanol is hard on the rubber, requiring a synthetic for diaphragms, gaskets. (methanol + holly stock power valve= methanol-waterfall into the manifold,)

As far as Methanol injection goes, the idea was to cool the incoming air charge through evaporation, and reduce it's non-compressable density by absorbing the free moisture in the air. It acted a bit like a chemical inter-cooler. Setup properly a mix of 55% water:45% Methanol injected with 91 octane will run in a 13:1 engine just fine. Methanol injection is making a return in the high performance diesel engines. (if there is such a thing) My attempt to use it was, well, lets just say it was slightly less than a raging success-unless the measure of success was just how far I could make pieces of an hirth engine fly. (I used a Snow's kit to build my grenade, er, I mean drag sled, resulting self-disassembling engine was my fault, not the kit's)
Some plan to stroll through Saint Peter's Gates, I plan to go through them at 150mph... backwards... in a screaming ball of flame, with a glimmer belt wrapped around my head, and a NOx button in my hand.


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