Glen-L.com

The Boatbuilder Connection
It is currently Sat May 25, 2013 9:39 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Decatur, AL
Oyster, I appreciate your comments. I haven't ruled out a diesel yet. I was just explaining why I'm leaning towards the outboards. What are your thoughts on keel coolers and a closed cooling system? If installing an inboard diesel in the Coastal Cruiser, what size would you recommend installing? Where would one look for a good used diesel?

Also, I hadn't thought of the added benifit of water heating for showers. That is something to consider too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:10 pm
Posts: 4394
Location: North Carolina
We really need to know your general location. This saves a lot of asking questions and general answers. We can target the answers to your particular requests. If you go to the control panel and add some information, then as a community we can hopefully point you towards stuff thats within your range, hopefully. Keel coolers are fine. But sometimes the engineering is suspect and may need some experimenting to get the right setup.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Decatur, AL
Sorry about that, I'm kind of new to all this.

I'm currently in Castle Rock, CO just south of Denver. I'm planning on building here and trailering to Alabama (parents live there) to start the Loop. My building experience to date is a stitch and glue canoe and 7.5' tender.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 11:47 pm
Posts: 1281
Location: Ogden, Utah-Jubilee build
:lol: so you going to take her up to 11 mile to do your test runs when you get her done. I lived in that area for many years

_________________
Don't be afraid to attempt anything. You might surprise your self in the attempt.
http://www.facebook.com/Home.Made.Boat.Building
Modified Jubilee-"Wild Flower" 40' house boat
14' Mr John-Wild Flower 2
32' Supper Huck- Wild flower 3

Rod H


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Decatur, AL
I hadn't thought about that yet. Most of my boating in the state has been a Cherry Creek Reservoir except for one trip up to Granby Reservoir.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:45 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Birmingham, AL, USA
Quote:
I'm currently in Castle Rock, CO just south of Denver. I'm planning on building here and trailering to Alabama (parents live there) to start the Loop. My building experience to date is a stitch and glue canoe and 7.5' tender.


Don't come this far and not make "The Gathering" part of it :!:

Bill

_________________
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:31 pm
Posts: 1189
Location: Cullman AL
Yessireeebob!
There's a bunch of us here Alababama!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:07 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Marissa, IL
I looked long and hard at the inboard diesel vs outboard. But there were several factors that pushed me to the outboard. I will try to list several but not necessarily in the order of importance.

1. Complexity - Hands down the outboard for me was a much simpler install

2. Odor - I hate the smell of diesel and I have been in far too many enclosed boats that reek of diesel on the inside.

3. Availability - I live in the Midwest. Here you will find 200 I/Os or O/Bs for every one diesel I/B. This means the dealer network for diesels is very small and local knowledge is almost non-existent. The engine – new or used – would have to be shipped or brought in from many miles away and I would then be on my own to sort out the install and any problems. I personally have zero knowledge of diesels.

4. Cost - Diesels I/B do operate more efficiently than O/B but if buying a new one it is almost impossible to recoup the cost difference in savings. May have been different in the day when diesel fuel was 1/3 cheaper than gas but now that is not the case. I guess buying used is a possibility but for me still a problem – see #3.

5. Noise – With an enclosed boat the noise created by an inboard diesel will be substantially louder than an O/B mounted behind and in my case outside the boat. We plan to take long cruises someday (yes, the Loop is a goal) and listening to the drone of the diesel hours on end is not something we wanted to endure if it could be avoided. With the O/B the cabin is extremely quiet. We can talk at normal levels, listen to music or audio books as we run at cruise speed. My hearing is already very poor (and getting worse) so this was a major consideration.

6. Lost Storage – For long cruises in a boat of this size storage space comes a at a premium. The diesel and transmission would have used a good bit of space we now have available for stuff. And trust me, my wife needs LOTS of stuff to keep her happy. :P

7. Probably more but these are the one that come quickly to mind.

On the downside we did give up a few things.

1. As mentioned free and abundant hot water. We installed a 6 gallon electric water heater and so far it has proved workable. It does require shore power or use of our Honda 2000 generator. But once heated the water tends to stay warm enough to shower for about 8 hours.

2. High amperage house battery charging. Our 60 HP Honda does have 25 amps available for charging. This a good bit more than other outboards in it’s class but still not near what you can get from an alternator on a diesel. I will say we have found the O/B will recover our evening /night usage (lights and TV for several hours) after about six hours running time. When on the move it should work out OK. If hanging on the hook for a few days the generator will be needed to run the 40 amp onboard charger.

3. Fuel Tank Location - If you are wanting a good amount of fuel capacity the placement of the weight within the hull is a big factor. With diesel the tanks can be placed more or less where ever you like with little fuss. But it gets more complex with gas tanks because of the need to isolate them from any electrical devices - above or below the deck - as well as vent the tank area well with outside air. My tanks are under the saloon floor which is less than I deal for gasoline (although totally acceptable and common for diesel) but needed to keep the weight forward. They are in a sealed vented chamber. This took a good bit more work to sort out and construct and it does appear to meet the Coastguard standards. Still, in other designs gas tanks are usually not placed below enclosed cabin areas.

Some people would probably want to add “dependability” to the items sacrificed but I am not one of them. I feel the new modern 4 stroke O/B’s are very dependable and I dare say I have as much confidence in my Honda as I would a new modern compact diesel. The new diesels like the Yanmars are very sweet and excellent power plants. But to my thinking they are fairly complex pieces of equipment not the big heavy almost indestructible diesels of yesterday. If I understand correctly a major benefit of the “old” style diesels were once started they would run even if all electrical power were lost. Is that still the case with the new electronically controlled engines? If not it nullifies a good part of the diesel dependability advantage.

I must add when I comes to dependability the biggest engine problem I have had in my river travels is with the props not the motors. I can't tell you how many times I have damaged a prop hitting logs, rocks, stumps - you name it. Some of them my fault some of them not but the end result is the same. With the O/B I can just trim up the engine and change the prop from the swim platform in less than 5 minutes. Want to try to change a prop on an I/B while drifting helplessly down the river? I didn't even consider this in the original logic but it is a factor I would weigh now.

All this is not to say in a different situation or location I might have ended up with a diesel I/B and been very happy but in this case the above is the thought processes that lead me to the gas O/B for my True Grit.

Also, might want to look at this link. It is a little dated now but still interesting.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm

_________________
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....


Last edited by raymacke on Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:21 pm
Posts: 8007
Location: tarpon springs fl
Ray, what is the max current you would be bucking on the "Loop"?

That may have some bearing on the size/performance of what ever he chooses.

As far as a cheaper way to get a diesel,a donor sailboat would have a small size engine, transmission,and possibly other parts.

some on here have done that mainly for the lead from the keel for their build(not all sailboats use lead for ballast,so reselling this might not work) , and sold all the stuff they didn't need to recoup the purchase price.

A lot of work,but a low price consideration

_________________
Boat building can best be defined as an endless series of
tragedies obscured by the occasional miracle, followed by a good bottle of beer.

Don't Dream Your Life, Live Your Dream


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:25 pm
Posts: 3426
Location: Coastal Georgia
When I was shopping for power for my Double Eagle, I shopped 150hp 2stroke O/B vs 150hp inboard Cummins diesel. At that time I was quoted $13,000 for the O/B and $13,500 for the Cummins.

I also looked at diesel vs gas inboards. On a long trip, the diesel comes out lighter in weight in reality. Look at fuel consumption on a long trip and the gas engine requires more fuel to go a long way, therefore making the boat heavier to carry the gas. If I was to go to the Gulfstream from Savannah, Ga. a gas engine might use 200gallons. the diesel make same trip on 120gallons. that a 80gallon difference and 80gal is 600lbs.
A 350 chev is 900lbs engine and 4BT Cummins is 1100lbs. That is a 400lb advantage to the Cummins.

_________________
God Bless our Troops; especially our Snipers


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:07 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Marissa, IL
I can't comment on current speeds in the gulf but on the inland rivers I have traveled most are fairly mild at 1 to less than 2 mph. One exception is the Mississippi below St Louis. Here 3 mph is not to unusual. But one on the reasons most cruisers do the Loop in a counterclockwise direction is to take advantage of the river currents. Since most flow from north to south you pick up a boost by traveling that way. Also, from what I have seen the vast majority of the people doing the Loop do it in 32' to 50' trawlers. Most of these are cruising around 10 mph or less because that is where the economy is. When you are going on a 6000 mile boat ride fuel cost are a concern.

As to the diesel's economy I really would like to see more real world numbers operating at displacement speeds in hull this size. Here weight still matters but if not planing it is not a huge factor. I am looking at the Jan/Feb issue of Passagemaker magazine and it features the 27' Ranger Tug which is similar in size (but a little heavier) as my True Grit. It is my understanding they consider it a Semi-displacement hull like the TG. It is sold with a 180 HP Yanmar which allows it to plane but they list the economy cruise at 9.9 MPH. Working the numbers that calculates to 3.4 MPG operating at that speed. Although I don't normally run my hull that fast my numbers with the Honda show I am yielding 3.1 MPG - about 11% difference. Yes, a difference but not nearly what most people think. In KENS example I would actually use about 24 gallons more so the the weight difference would be a wash. The new fuel injected 4 stroke O/Bs are much more efficient than the older outboards or gas I/Os. Plus, why do I run slower? - by backing off just 2 MPH (from 10 to 8 ) I double the MPG.

A few years back I had the opportunity to tow my 24' Bayliner Express Cruiser (carbureted 250 HP I/O) about 6 miles with my carbureted Honda 50 powered Cabin Skiff. (Don't ask - one of my dumbest boating moments!) I had a fuel flow gauge on each and was amazed I could move both boats down the river at 5 mph and use a good bit less gas than the Bayliner would use at that speed by itself. It just kind of emphasized the economy of these small outboards.

_________________
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....


Last edited by raymacke on Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:10 pm
Posts: 4394
Location: North Carolina
FWIW, I could run a pair of Lehman diesels years ago, for under or about four gallons an hour in a 36' Cheoy LeeTrawler. We could make about eight mph. in waters along the ICW where the current changes all day.
This is a link with some numbers of running a pair of diesels too. Its pretty inline too.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f10 ... 33311.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:25 pm
Posts: 3426
Location: Coastal Georgia
I think the economy in you guys examples come from slowing down, not so much from engine selection. A 27 or 30 foot boat @ 6kts only needs about 20hp or so, thus the difference between diesel and outboard is very little difference.
however in my example I am running 20kts, at about 90hp. The higher the hp the bigger the difference between engines as far as economy is concerned. I used this scenario as a example of weight differences in a longer cruise measurement.
If you are doing a trip like the Great Loop, then the diesel would ultimately use less fuel, but the price of diesel recently would perhaps cost more.
In Ray's case, he put a premium on quiet running, so the outboard on a bracket fullfilled the bill.

_________________
God Bless our Troops; especially our Snipers


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:53 pm
Posts: 20
Location: B.C. Canada
Hi I have a 27 foot True Grit hull with a 170 hp i/o cummins diesel. At 2ooo rpm I get 8 knots and burn 1.5 gals - 5.3mpg. I cruise at 3000 rpm and get 14.1 knots burning 3.9 gals -3.6 mpg. At 4000 rpm wot- 19.5 knots and burning 8.1 gals. The boat weighs 8500 lbs. At 3000 rpm the engine load is 65% , so I'm not working the engine so hard.Before when the boat was 25 feet and I had a 105 hp volvo diesel, I cruised at 10.5 knots at 3900 rpm. Here on the west coast it's nice to have a little extra speed , as some places we have currents up to 5 to 10 knot. This hull is very easily driven, for example the North Pacific 28 foot with 8'6" beam , same weight, same 170 engine, gets at wot only 14 knots.
Don


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:07 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Marissa, IL
TRIPLE-D - You numbers look very good and I am envious! At 8 kts my True Grit has the bow high as it starts to climb for the surface and the transom is low creating a good size wake. Not an efficient mode. How is yous sitting at that point? I notice at 8500 lbs you are a good bit heavier than I am and wondering if this is helping hold the bow in check. Plus, I tend to be a little heavy at the transom with my aft engine mount and I know this is fighting we. You also mention "when the boat was 25' ". Can I ask for a little more details about the performance changes when it was lengthened?


Another outboard engine disadvantage I failed to mention earlier is fuel tank placement. If you are wanting a good amount of fuel capacity the placement of the weight within the hull is a big factor. With diesel the tanks can be placed more or less where ever you like with little fuss. But it gets more complex with gas tanks because of the need to isolate them from any electrical devices - above or below the deck - as well as vent the tank area well with outside air. My tanks are under the saloon floor which is less than I deal for gasoline (although totally acceptable and common for diesel) but needed to keep the weight forward. They are in a sealed vented chamber. This took a good bit more work to sort out and construct but it does appear to meet the Coastguard standards. Still, in other designs gas tanks are usually not placed below enclosed cabin areas.

I will try to go back and add this disadvantage to my original post as I feel it is important.

_________________
So Many Rivers,
So Little Time....


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group