Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Painting options, interior and exterior.

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kens
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by kens »

"The plywood and cold molded wooden boats being built here are way better than these old classics in terms of durability, sea-worthiness, and performance, why shouldn't the finishes we use be equally better? Couldn't you tint clear PU to match varnish?"

That statement is been going on for a long time. You got the people that want the 'pure restoration', and the 'practical restoration'.
truth be known, if CC or Hacker, or Riva, or Century, or any other builder had accesss to cold molded epoxy, you bet your azz they they would have used it. Back in those days they used the best known glues/processes of the current time. If those old guys had access to epoxy, they would have used it. If they had access to polyurethene clear paint, they damn sure would have used it. If they had access to a OHV engine, with roller cam, hydraulic lifters, TBI fuel injection, down angle transmission, aquamet22 shafting, NiBral props, they damn sure would have used it.
BUT NO, they were stuck with the old flat head engines, updraft carburetors, with bronze shafts, and bronze props, and Gasp!!! Varnish !!!!
Then to get back to your question, can the modern clears be tinted to duplicate that "warm amber glow " of varnish?
I dunno about the clears per-se. but, this much I do know.:
you can take clear epoxy resin, and use a hardener that is that "amber" color, and mix it up, and you can get that 'friggin amber glow"
In my case, my clear resin is just plain clear, but, I have several different temp hardeners on the shelf, and, the cold temp one is that "amber honey" color when mixed. And here is the rub:
2 coats of epoxy (chemically cured) yields greater 'depth of color' than 8 coats of varnish (air dry).
therefore why bother with varnish?
Oak..........the juice ain't worth the squeeze :D :shock: :o :)

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Roberta
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by Roberta »

While the virtues of one method and product over another has been discussed in this thread, the dangers and short comings have not. Toxicity, special equipment, added costs, protection of adjacent areas and protection of the object being painted need to be addressed. The two part polyurethane paints require additional consideration and expense to properly and safely apply. Airborne particulate from sprayed paint can be lethal. While discussing these products, we need to include the bad and the good.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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kens
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by kens »

if it's as toxic as they say, I would already be dead.
2-part paints need more PPE than air dry, but a full body supplied air suit is not needed for what we do.
the correct face mask is ok for what we do.
I'm getting into all that later.
Oak..........the juice ain't worth the squeeze :D :shock: :o :)

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kens
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by kens »

I just read the safety label for varnish,
this sounds pretty toxic!

Precautionary Statements - Prevention
Do not breathe dust/fume/gas/mist/vapors/spray
Wash face, hands and any exposed skin thoroughly after handling
Do not eat, drink or smoke when using this product
Keep away from heat/sparks/open flames/hot surfaces. - No smoking
Keep container tightly closed
Ground/Bond container and receiving equipment
Use explosion-proof electrical/ventilating/lighting/equipment
Use only non-sparking tools
Take precautionary measures against static discharge
Wear protective gloves/clothing and eye/face protection
Precautionary Statements - Response
Get medical advice/attention if you feel unwell
IF ON SKIN (or hair): Take off immediately all contaminated clothing. Rinse skin with water/ shower
In case of fire: Use CO2, dry chemical, or foam to extinguish

Skin and body protection Solvent-resistant gloves. Nitrile rubber. Neoprene gloves. Impervious butyl rubber gloves.
Please observe the instructions regarding permeability and breakthrough time which are
provided by the supplier of the gloves. Also take into consideration the specific local
conditions under which the product is used, such as the danger of cuts, abrasion. Wear
suitable protective clothing. Remove and wash contaminated clothing before re-use.


here is the statement on polyurethane, it reads about the same:

Precautionary statements Obtain special instructions before use.
Keep away from heat/sparks/open flames/hot surfaces. - No smoking.
Keep container tightly closed.
Ground/bond container and receiving equipment.
Use explosion-proof electrical/ventilating/lighting equipment.
Use only non-sparking tools.
Take precautionary measures against static discharge.
Avoid breathing dust/ vapours/ spray.
Wear protective gloves/protective clothing/eye protection/face protection.
Contaminated work clothing should not be allowed out of the workplace.
IF exposed or concerned: Get medical advice/ attention.
IF ON SKIN (or hair): Remove/ Take off immediately all contaminated clothing. Rinse skin
with water/ shower.

the hardener is the component that suggests you wear face mask with organic filters.
Oak..........the juice ain't worth the squeeze :D :shock: :o :)

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Roberta
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by Roberta »

Great information, Ken. Thank you for researching and sharing.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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kens
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by kens »

2-part paints sure need the extra PPE if you worked with it, sprayed it, 8 hours/day 5/days week.
but then if you worked varnish 8hours/5days you would need PPE as well.
The amount we would use on a boat, perhaps 1gallon kit of urethane, a proper face mask is ok.
There is a proper face mask for this paint, it about 40-50 bucks.
BUT, the quality of the paint is well over $50 better on a $25k build project.
As I get deeper into this thread, I will present a connection between PPE and 'that wet look'
Yes, PPE goes beyond the smelly fumes, it does contribute to the final finish. :!:
more later........

next up......compressed air and or air compressor
Oak..........the juice ain't worth the squeeze :D :shock: :o :)

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kens
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by kens »

Shop air.
Many of us don't use a lot of air powered sanding tools, nor spray paint.
Some do, and some probably should.
Many have the ubiquitous electric palm sander or 6" random orbital.
IMHO the palm sander is crap, the 6" orbital is mostly marginal.
The air file is junk.
I like the air 8" geared orbital. this is the original ND900 Mud Hog.
https://www.amazon.com/National-Detroit ... B000IHSN4U

here is a cheaper clone:
https://www.amazon.com/Astro-3008-8-Inc ... B00061SFP0

If I was doing a cold mold, I would certainly look into this. Since I do spray paint this is a must have for me.
BUT, it needs air, and a lot of it, because you always running it.
I see most air compressors advertised for sale as 2-Stage-175psi !! with no regard to CFM (volume)
you need volume for sanding or spraying.
Your best bet is the biggest 1-stage, slowest turning, compressor you can get.
you need volume over pressure for sanding/spraying.

Getting air though without dribbling moisture on your work can be frustrating.
The best effective shop setup I ever used was the compressor went into a vertical plenum (3" pipe) up the wall (nearly to rafters), with horizontal running plenum (1" pipe) along/around next wall, and canted back towards the big pipe (where compressor is). This vertical & canted plenum gives air a chance to cool off and moisture can fall out to gravity. Put the regulator/dryer furthest away from compressor (far end of plenum).
I got this info from BINKS and tried it in my shop, and by golly it worked. just plain steel pipe.
I have seen shops spend big money on a air dryer, then bolt it right up to the compressor, for little gain.
This steel pipe plenum does better by a money factor about 10:1 in dollars and dryer air.
Oak..........the juice ain't worth the squeeze :D :shock: :o :)

TomB
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by TomB »

I have a 60 gallon, single stage Sandborn air compressor. I use it with an air file. If the compressor cycles on three times, the starting capacitor blows. :x :x :x If you're buying an air compressor for sanding get one for sanding, anything less will be a disappointment. Tom
In the home stretch on a Tahoe 23

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kens
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by kens »

post a pic of your compressor.
with a 60gal you should be ok. it doesn't really know if you are airing up tires or sanding. (at least it shouldn't)
it's not a 110v job on top of a 60gal tank is it?
Oak..........the juice ain't worth the squeeze :D :shock: :o :)

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kens
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by kens »

here's another item or tidbit.
Lower the pressure adjustment on the motor pressure switch. you don't need it to shut off/cycle at a high pressure.
Lower it to cycle on/off about 60/80psi.
you spray paint at about 50, you can sand ok at 60.
you don't have any real use for the upper 100psi. the compressor is just running it's guts out to make that 90-120psi for no useful gain.

I ran a body shop on a 3hp compressor. granted it was a 3phase, industrial duty, BUT, at the end of the day it was still only 3hp.
An honest-to-God 3hp, slow running, single stage, setup to cycle 60-80.
there is NO tools in the shop that demand 90psi, so don't waste electricity bill, nor the extra heat generated by jacking the pressure up.
Oak..........the juice ain't worth the squeeze :D :shock: :o :)

TomB
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by TomB »

Ken,

Here are a couple of air compressor pictures.
IMG_0705.jpeg
60 gallon, 3.7 HP, 230 V Painting and sanding are ok with caution according to the label on the front of the tank.
IMG_0706.jpeg
And I agree that the compressor doesn't care where the air goes after its compressed. My nail guns work best at 60 and above (one likes 90) so I have the tool regulator set at 60 and the shut off at 110 and I never have a problem.

In my case, the problem seems to be motor heat. The tank and compressor get warm, the motor gets hot. Fire up the air compressor, fire up the air file, and before the compressor can cycle on for the forth time the starting capacitor blows making an oily mess. If I fill the tank, shut the compressor off for an hour to cool, it works. I'll give a lower shutoff a try for sanding.

Tom
In the home stretch on a Tahoe 23

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kens
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by kens »

I think that label on the tank is misleading the consumer/user/purchaser.
!. 3.7hp,,,what is that? electric motors come in standardized HP ratings. such as:
1hp
2hp
3hp
5hp
7.5hp
10hp.
Never in my life have I seen a 3.7hp.
But, the salesman 'might' have put out a number such that the motor is at some math equivalent to 3.7hp at the time it blew a fuse or circuit breaker. that's a maybe. better yet, it's a probable
Perhaps that item will run at a something like 2hp constant. and 3.7 when it trips the breaker ??? ask the salesman for the correct answer. call the 1-800-help number and query them on that. :shock:

2. 155psi. single stage compressors are good for up to approx 100psi. there is difference between what they are good for, and, what the salesman label, stick-on label says. typically single stage is advertised at 125. real world is 100. and 155 is where it just absolutely will not go any higher no matter how long nor how hard it runs, nor how hot it gets. the general shop environment referring to in this thread 100psi is fine. 2-stage high pressure is not required, BUT, an honest single stage is required.

3. if your motor will not cycle on/off without blowing capacitors, there is an issue. you got a electric motor problem, regardless how much psi or how much temp it gets, or how much CFM, the motor should run.

4. if your tank is getting hot, then you are at the far limit as to your compressor ability. that is the reason for my plenum as mentioned above,,,to get rid of the heat. if your tank is hot, then you are seeing water dribbles at the sander exhaust??? no?
Oak..........the juice ain't worth the squeeze :D :shock: :o :)

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kens
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by kens »

My 6hp compressor crapped the bed. The tank bottom rusted and started leaking. Look at it, it says 6hp, that's a fake 6hp.
Maybe 1.5 at best, but that's what you get nowadays. An honest-to-God 5hp would be $2k to start. Home depot sells a fake 5hp for $600. The tank is the most expensive part of it so they make them thin to be cheap, then they rust out quickly. I cannot roll&tip to good results, so I am on a mission to find a compressor. My boat needs paint so I am backed into a corner here.
20210128_194201.jpg
Oak..........the juice ain't worth the squeeze :D :shock: :o :)

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Roberta
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by Roberta »

We had large air tanks on big circuit breakers at We Energies. When bottoms rotted out on tanks, we had them cut off and new bottoms welded on. Is that an option or is total replacement a better idea? Generally only the bottom goes bad from water sitting in it from not being drained regularly. Repairing was more economical than replacing. Just a thought.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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kens
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Re: Sanding Grits,,,Finishes,,, Varnishes,,,Paints,,, that Wet Look,,,

Post by kens »

where would you go to find a certified welder to weld a pressure vessel, then test it?
but yeah, just the bottom is rusted.
Oak..........the juice ain't worth the squeeze :D :shock: :o :)

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