Encapsulation

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Brian
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Encapsulation

Post by Brian »

I'm getting mixed signals on this subject with respect to laminating the hull. Glen says to encapsulate (CPES) each piece and the preceding layer before laminating them together. But people on this Forum have said not to do that because you want a wood-to-wood contact for the epoxy. I've just finished the first layer on my Monte Carlo, and stopped putting CPES on the frames and battens, based on Forum advice. Before I start the second layer planks, I'd like to know whether to CPES or not CPES.

It seems to me, when you trowel on the thickened epoxy resin, you are sealing the ply on both surfaces. Hard to imagine water getting in between. Encapsulating every piece will be a major pain, since not only is it smelly and toxic, but you have to let it dry a day or two before you can do anything with the pieces.

On the other hand, CPES really goes through the wood and seals it. Hard to imagine a better material than encapsulated marine ply laminated with epoxy!

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thudpucker
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by thudpucker »

I used almost 5 gallons of CPES on two boats in Ketchikan AK. It worked very well as it seemed to follow the rot.

I've always wondered if Wood can be encapsulated successfully.
Architects will tell you Fog will move through a building.
Ply with Marine glue will eventually Rot/Die and the wood will fall away from the Glue because of water incursion.
I hope somebody who knows, will come along and educate us here. :|

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Bob Perkins
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by Bob Perkins »

I would not CPES during Planking (and I did not)
CPES the completed structure... The epoxy glue is to glue to wood.

Short answer ;)
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Bob Perkins

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Brian
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by Brian »

Thanks. I'd like to hear more from others. Seems to me this is kind of a BIG deal from a builder's point of view, since to encapsulate each plank is very time consuming. If you are only doing a few planks at a time, you have to get all geared up to put on CPES (toxic), then let is dry at least a day.

I just don't see how water can get into the ply if its laminated with epoxy, and then later on the whole structure is treated with CPES.

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by Bill Edmundson »

I don't care much for CPES. The samples I tried, I didn't see any difference in penetration in new wood than regular un-thickened epoxy. It is toxic and we have a problem with that at our house.

I think it's probably better on damaged wood.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
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Bob Perkins
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by Bob Perkins »

It is WAY too much work to CPES every piece before you glue it together...

Take a look at my site.. You can see I didn't do that...
In fact - when you are layering the 1/8" ply, it is going to cause it to stiffen and be difficult to work/sand/fair...

Honestly - it makes no sense to me at all.. the epoxy you are gluing with is "encapsulating the wood"

Finally - once you CPES whatever is getting coated - you then need to coat THAT..
CPES is a primer.. so either Varnish or Paint needs to go over it...

The outside of your hull should be glassed - so that is encapsulated.
I did not glass my deck, just CPES and varnish.
the inside I CPES/Varnished.

Boat has had water in it plenty of times... no issues...

If anyone is CPESing all the parts before putting parts together - I'd love to hear why...
Its too much wasted energy...
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Bob Perkins

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jprice
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by jprice »

I agree with Bob.
CPES is great for encapsulating. Mainly because of it's thin consistency. Goes on easy, and a little goes a long way.

But as far as laminating pieces, I don't see why cpes would be necessary. Whenever laminating pieces, I gave each piece a coat of unthickened epoxy followed up by thickened epoxy on one of the pieces.

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by Bill Edmundson »

On cold mold, I wet the back of the new piece with plain epoxy. Then thicken the epoxy for glue and apply it to the previous layer. That way I know that I don't have any "dry" surfaces between layers.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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Bob Perkins
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by Bob Perkins »

to add...

I used vacuum bagging - so I needed to use a very small amount of epoxy..
When stapling - you certainly do not want dry spots anywhere.

I used slightly thickened epoxy, then used a 1/8" notch spreader to get even coverage over the entire plank.
Doing that on one side in conjunction with wetting out the other side with unthickened epoxy should work great with staples.
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Bob Perkins

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jenko
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by jenko »

I did the same as Bill, did 6 x 4'' planks in one mix then moved to other side

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thudpucker
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by thudpucker »

When I had Rot in two big Wood boats, in Ketchikan, I phoned "Smith" in California to find out about CPES.

It's a thinned Epoxy that will penetrate the wood further than normal Epoxy.
So if your Wood is old and Pithy, the CPES will form a platform for the Epoxy to attach to. As well as seeping into the Rotted parts which makes them pretty solid.
I saw this as I cut up the Chine log in one of the boats. I was amazed at how far that CPES had reached and it was as hard as a Epoxy piece.

Best results happen if your wood is really really dry.
Along the way I learned not to thin Epoxy with Alcohol or anything else and expect the same results.ut CPES on the Bow deck of my 23' Tolly. Sanded, and when the Gel Coat went on, it was so smooth! Like a Baby's bottom. :lol:

On another forum a Respectable guy says CPES is NOT waterproof. :|
OK, on that subject, I believe him. I also believe its one of the Best Undercoats in this world!
However, I doubt if you can keep moisture out of any wood.
Even the professionally treated Piles and Foundation posts absorb water. They wick it up out of the ground in some places.

But that Epoxy stuff including CPES will keep the wood fibers linked to each other and to the Epoxy.

All this I learned over some years of speaking with the knowledgeable ones! :P

One last piece.....Encapsulate a piece of wood. Maybe three pieces of the same kind of wood.
Weight them down underwater for at least a month.
Pick up one, cut it and check for moisture. If none....wait a month and get the second piece...ad nauseum.

When you report back, we'll all know the truth about encapsulation! :lol:

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by Bill Edmundson »

One place I really believe in CPES is rust. Brush the rust off the best that you can. Coat with CPES. Then an epoxy paint. Then coat with polyurethane if it is out in the sun. This is what they do on offshore oil rigs.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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thudpucker
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by thudpucker »

Then coat with polyurethane if it is out in the sun.

You just answered another of my life long questions Bill.
Poly on the Boat if it's staying out in the sun.
Thanks.

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Encapsulation

Post by Bill Edmundson »

Thud

Poly is much more UV resistant than epoxy. Epoxy is much more moisture resistant than PU. CPES will go thru the rust.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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