23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

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kens
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by kens »

HoosierVet wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:23 pm
First of all I would like to thank everyone for their input. I’m sorry for the delay but we are on vacation with limited cell service.

The boat does have cable steering. It does not seem to be a problem in chop. The boat does not porpoise. And yes I do believe it happened while overtaking a wave on an oblique angle. As far as experience on a boat I have put over 1500 hours on my 3 searay runabouts and my 4 Mastercraft surf boats However I have no experience in a wooden boat especially a flat bottom wood boat.

We are on our third day with it on the water and have not had Any problems this trip but have not gone over 3000 rpm. My hope is to get it out tomorrow morning early when the water is like glass and try 4000 rpm. As stated prior my wife is very concerned about the boat and I try to keep it at 2500-2750 rpm. I also plan on having a friend run next to me and video the boat at different rpms to I can view the bow and how it is riding on the water.
Hi,
Cable steering is of no consequence if it is correct installed, dont matter if it hydraulic steering, rack/pinion, whatever, steering is irrelevant to this so-called 'hook' scenario.
Wooden boat don't matter either, it is still a boat. Wood, plastic, aluminum, dont matter as far as this 'hook' scenario. it's the bottom shape the difference in the hook thing.
So, you got 1500hrs in 3 searay, and 4 mastercraft?? this your first wood boat?
How big was your Searays? 45'+ Sportfishers??
We getting a bit closer to the answer here. Go back and read my post about the bow frames drafting more than the transom. Here is a difference.
The smaller searays, Mastercrafts are gonna be full deep or (moderate) vee hulls and they will not have that deep bow I mentioned.
The deep bow frames is the key difference
Barrelback has that. My boat has that in a HUGE way.
You not gonna be able to get pictures of that bow forefoot running, because it is in the water, you can't see it running.
that deeper bow,,,,when you overtake a wave,,,,,at a oblique angle,,,,,at high speed,,,,,,wants to steer off that wave.
You have to try this,,,,,at moderate speed,,,,go easy,,,,,and just do it,,,steer out of it and keep going.

overtaking the back side of a wave is ALWAYS the most treacherous, open water, lakes, blue water, wherever.
When in offshore blue water, the following sea is the smoothest, driest ride, but, the following seas sink more boats and hurt more people.
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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Aussie
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Aussie »

Just out of interest everyone with a Belle put up a pick of it on the plane. (No real reason other than they look cool)!

I will be out at the dam on the weekend and I am going to get some video at different speeds and see where she sits as I haven’t pushed her up to anything more than 35 mph and in calm water.

Billy C

Do you run a central fin? I put one on it.
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billy c
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by billy c »

Aussie wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:00 pm
Billy C
Do you run a central fin? I put one on it.
I haven't put a fin on it as Hankinson did not include it in his lines, but many of Hankinsons classics did call for one. (All the ski boats do run them (some multiple) and our V to flat running surface when on plane would certainly help stop the wag when you are towing as you often are.)
It will be interesting to see HV's photos of his Belle on the water at speed. Glad he has some hours on boats so should be able to give us good feedback.
Billy
(insert Witty phrase here)
Billy's Belle Isle website

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Aussie
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Aussie »

Hi all,

Took the Belle out on the weekend for a play.
We tuned and knee boarded for the day and had a blast!
I had about 6 runs on the knee board and it is an absolute thrill to be behind a boat you have built yourself.

Just before we loaded back onto the trailer I done a pass at 20, 30 and 40mph (see video link)

All day we put her through her paces throwing her around with the tube behind and she handled great, I know this is at lower speeds but impressed with steering and handling.

While at the dam I was approached by the president of the Mackay Power boat Racing club to be there next flag/starter boat for their future races.
I will be running the boats in at various speeds depending on the class. The 105mph boats I will be running start at 40mph.

Going to be fun!

https://youtu.be/MKfbpkUubn0

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Roberta
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Roberta »

Looking very normal as the bow rises with increasing speed. My Torpedo is the same way. Above 35 mph my trim tabs push the bow down to stabilize and smooth the ride in rougher water. The Torpedo hull is designed more like the Riviera with a slightly deeper "V" at the stern.

I don't think trim tabs would help the Belle, or similar hull designs. Those hulls were not designed for high speed. There is a reason that hulls have evolved to be more purposeful.

I would like to see a picture of the rudder on the boat in question.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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Aussie
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Aussie »

I would also like to see rudder and what degree strut is being used, prop size etc. I agree I wouldn’t want to be pushing these things at high speed in unsavoury conditions.

Last pass was 40mph at 4000 rpm, I am running a 4 blade 13x13
Going to pop my 3 blade 13 x13 back on once it is repaired and compare.

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Roberta
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Roberta »

I am also running a 13x13 four blade OJ proo. 1:1 ratio on the gear box. If I recall, the strut on the Torpedo is around 15 deg. 330 hp Crusader V8. The Torpedo is really beamy at 85 inches and 19-1/2 feet long. That wide beam really helps skipping over all kinds of water crud. We ran it flat out for many miles on the St. Lawrence River last year during the ACBS International. Saw many types of water conditions there.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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Aussie
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Location: Sarina Queensland Building 23ft Belle Isle

Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Aussie »

Roberta,

What is top speed and at what rpm

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Roberta
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Roberta »

About 50 mph at 5000 rpm.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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Rich Coey
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Rich Coey »

This has kind of gotten off track, we need to see photos or videos of HoosierVet’s boat that this post is about.

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Aussie
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Aussie »

Rich,

Sorry I know I have slightly high jacked the post but I think it is still relevant that we are talking about Belle Isle and hooking.
Agreed we need to see pics and video and get some more details on HoosierVets boat. Thought some of the video and pics may help.

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Roberta
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Roberta »

Sorry, I'm guilty, too.

Roberta
Roberta "Queen of the Boat Builders"
Built Zip "Oliver IV", Super Spartan "Jimmy 70", and Torpedo "The Glen L".

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kens
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by kens »

I think it all boils down to the 'forefoot'.
the deeper the forefoot, the more the tendancy to 'hook'
another way to see it is look at the keel line compared to level line.
drawing.bowline.jpg
If you look at speed potential of various boats we all know, and look at my drawing, you begin to see the correlation.
I made this list by looking at the body plans drawing of Double Eagle, Belle Isle (barrelback), Tahoe, Riviera, Gentry, Torpedo, CrackerBox, Hot rod.

Look how deep the forefoot on Double Eagle, the bow drafts 9" more than transom, and it really hooks (I deleted the keel)
Image

Belle Isle, a little less forefoot, faster than D Eagle
Image

Tahoe, in between BB and Riviera

Riviera, less forefoot, less hooking, faster than Barrelback
Riviera-Body-Plan.png
Torpedo, nearly flat keel to level, faster than Riveira,
Image

Crackerbox and Hot Rod, the keel is on a level line, the fast of the fast, and least hooking

Image

Image
Oak is over rated, everything about it takes extra time; then it warps, splits or checks !!! :roll:

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DrBryanJ
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by DrBryanJ »

So is the answer to prevent hooking go slower or move weight aft to raise the forefoot out of the water?
Bryan

Building a malahini "Mona Lisa"

My wife said "If I build a boat, she's getting a divorce."
We're still happily married, but now she just wants "the dam boat out of the garage."

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: 23’ Belle Isle “hooking”

Post by Bill Edmundson »

Hooking is not a problem with the forefoot out of the water. Problem comes when you suddenly hit that four foot wake and the forefoot is in the wave!

There is no substitute for being aware of condition and running accordingly. You can run safely at 50 mph. Probably not with a bunch of wake-boats or flying bridge sport fishermen.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

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