Mist Miss - Desert Build

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by Bill Edmundson »

Andrew

Raptor brads. You can brad them together and cut-out. Then a quick lateral hammer tap will break the brads to separate the pieces. I you hit the brads there is no damage.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

Thanks DrBryanJ, TomB, and Bill for the suggestions. I'm going to go with putting in a few screws (which I have), as opposed to the double-sided tape or Raptor Brads (which I don't). Although I've seen the Raptor brad discussion threads - looks interesting and may be worth considering when doing the hull.

I've said it twice now, but I'm hoping to put together a plywood day. I haven't been able to touch the boat project yet in December, as we've had family and flu sweeping in and out of the house. I'm pleasantly surprised how anxious I'm getting not working on the boat on an almost-daily basis.

Unless I get in a lot of time between Christmas and New Years, I'll likely be behind schedule a bit (but only by a week or two). I just have to make sure that I keep pushing, especially when I get to bonding, to do a daily assembly with overnight curing. That should help keep me on pace.

General Poxy-Grip question (I could cross-post in the Epxoy section): how cold is too cold for it to bond and set up? Our nights in December/January get down to the low 40s, with occasional frost warnings. The good news is that the garage itself probably won't get down below 50 degrees, which I'm guessing would be sufficient, but slow curing. Thoughts?
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

neel thompson
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by neel thompson »

Andrew

I have not had any problems with epoxy curing overnight with the garage 50 or above. I always put stuff together when the temp is at least 60, but if I think the garage will be dropping below 50 overnight, I postpone any gluing. I always use "fast cure" hardener with cooler temps and try to glue around mid day when it is warmest. This gives the epoxy some time to start curing before it gets too cold in the garage..... Neel

JimmY
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by JimmY »

A small space heater can help too.
-Jim
Nothing says poor craftsmanship like wrinkles in your duct tape!

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DrBryanJ
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by DrBryanJ »

I glued in pieces yesterday in my unheated garage. I used silver tip thickened with silica. It's been a little over 12hrs. The temps dropped to 18 last night. When I got up the garage was 40. Epoxy is cured. I think 50 degrees will be fine.
Bryan

Building a malahini "Mona Lisa"

My wife said "If I build a boat, she's getting a divorce."
We're still happily married, but now she just wants "the dam boat out of the garage."

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mrintense
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by mrintense »

Another thing that helps is to bring the epoxy into the house the day before to get it to a warmer temperature. This way it's not starting off cold (which makes it harder to mix). But Neel's comment about watching evening temps and starting before the temps drop is good advice. It's been my experience that a heater in the garage won't get the boat itself warm enough unless it's running continually.
Carl

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise

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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

I've been storing the epoxy in the house anyway - so that's at ~72 degrees, but each small batch will likely be mixed in the laundry room and then taken out to the cooler garage. Even when we've had frost overnight (between 2:00 and 4:00 AM), the garage never got below 40 degrees. But if I apply in the heat of the day window (in AZ it's more like 4:00 PM) I'm thinking it should have plenty of time to harden. That and avoid epoxying when there's a cold spell.
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

footer
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by footer »

I have a heated garage here in Michigan I keep at 55 degrees. Like you I found keeping my epoxy in the house until I’m ready to use it, works the best and it’s always cured by the next day.

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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

Well, good news, campers - I was finally, after several weeks, able to put together a Plywood Day!

This involved shuffling some cars in and out of the garage to access the cache of marine plywood I had bought back in October.

First up was the gussets for frames 1-7. The plans indicate 1/4" ply, and I'm using 1/4" Marine grade Douglas Fir. As you'll recall from earlier in the build thread, I needed to make 52 gussets (7 frames x 4 gussets x 2 sides = 56, and then -4 because Frame 2 doesn't have a top deck beam).

I had already made templates out of card stock, so it was a matter of jigsaw-puzzling them together to maximize plywood usage.

For the most part, if I could keep them in a 12" section (variable width between 12-17"), I could get all of the gussets for an entire frame out of one 4' ripped section, below:
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Then I created 4 identical 12" square pieces:
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I traced the gusset templates onto one of the pieces:
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Stacked the four 12"x12" pieces, with the traced one on top. And then using DrBryanJ's recommendation, put in two screws on each to keep from torquing:
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And then bandsaw time! The Doug Fir ply was softer and lighter than the Sapele, and I noticed it was "stringier" after cutting. Nothing a sander cant' take care of:
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That was Frame 4. Definitely a repeatable process. Some of the other gussets (6 & 7) required tiles that were 12" x 18":
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So after a whole afternoon . . . 52 gussets! (I'll separate them when I start assembling each frame, but the screws keep them from getting lost or separated from their mates.
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It felt great to be back in the shop after having not worked on the project since Thanksgiving weekend. Plywood Day 2 is up for tomorrow - going to shoot for stem, breasthook and floor timbers from the 3/4" ply.
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

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Milhouse
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by Milhouse »

Congrats on getting some wood cut out!

I took a look at the Mist Miss pics and was surprised to see that she looks really similar to my 16' Ski Boat restoration.

I am eager to see her take shape!
Jim
16' Ski Boat Restoration
17' Overnighter Sloop

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mrintense
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by mrintense »

Starting to look like a boat!! :wink: :wink:

I remember when I first started making the frames and how much satisfaction I got just from cutting out and sanding the parts to shape. :D
Carl

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise

Clipper Boating

denbrlr
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by denbrlr »

Things are moving along and looking good. Assuming you drill holes in the gussets for the nails, don’t drill the holes matching gussets at the same time. Make sure to offset them a little so the nails don’t line up on the opposing gussets. Otherwise after you nail one side and flip over (after the epoxy on one side cures), you will drive nails and hit the nails that were driven on the opposite side. Hopefully this makes sense.

Lee

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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

Happy New Year, everyone! I'm back online and working on the Mist Miss after a few weeks off for the holidays, including a getaway to New Orleans for several days. I was also able to attend a "Bandsaw 101" class at my local woodshop, which helped with some tips and tricks on regular cutting and resawing, which I'll hope to employ in the future.

I'd also like to thank Jim, Lee, Tom, Bryan, Bill, Neel and Carl for the encouragement and advice on the layout of frames and epoxying.

When I last posted just before Christmas, I had manufactured gussets for the entire frame set. But I was hesitant to start "gluin' and screwin'". I started with Frame 2, which is the only frame of the 8 that doesn't have a deck beam, and it has a solid one-piece floor beam, with only 4 gussets. So if I totally screwed up, I'd only be out 3 pieces of mahogany instead of the 5 elsewhere on the boat . . .

Basic observations that I'm sure you all are nodding your head to:

Sanding: I didn't realize how much sanding is needed to get the beams to the exact correct shape. I had left them a little "proud" on the bandsaw, and I'll be re-evaluating that approach in the future. Regarding the dust-collection systems discussed earlier, I'm not sure if it's acceptable by boatbuilder standards, but I took advantage of a breezy day, pulled my work table and belt/disc sander out towards the end of the driveway, and the sawdust dispersed and drifted away. Not much cleanup. I won't be able to take advantage all the time, but I thought that was a bit of good news and hopefully not an environmental hazard.

Silicon Bronze fasteners: It was mentioned in several threads (some from 15 years ago) how malleable the silicon bronze screws were. They couldn't be THAT bad, I thought, so I tested. As long as you pre-drill and countersink, I was able to use my impact driver to sink the screw, unscrew it, drive it back in another hole, and then . . .
Image

That was fun removing. As it stands I'm using the suggestion of driving a same-thread steel wood screw in each hole as a starter, and then only driving the SB hardware post-epoxy. I didn't have many issues with the SB nails. Post-epoxy I quickly set the gusset down and drove a single nail on each member to get it firmed up into position, then waited about 10 minutes (with extra wax paper) to hammer in the rest. The only issue thus far is I'm using 1-1/2" nails, and my 4/4 sapele + 1/4" gusset has them all going through to the workbench underneath. They'll be covered by the opposite gusset, but in case they're not, I'll need to get some slightly shorter nails.
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Epoxy: I'm using Poxy-Grip, and storing inside (72 degrees). Man, I didn't know it was SO thick. I tried to use disposable measuring cups, but they took forever to fill and settle to view the exact amount that I quickly re-purposed the digital food scale in the kitchen to measure by weight. Lacking a dedicated mixing container, I grabbed a Solo cup from the kitchen, mixing just over 1.5 oz of mixed epoxy for this job. I had a little left over, but now I have a better idea of how much to mix for subsequent frames (which have more gussets). But that stuff was super thick and sluggish to move around. The good news is that I didn't get many drips down the sides - one or two that I'll either chisel or sand off. Several folks mentioned wax paper - that also won't be making it back to the kitchen. @Carl, I used your suggestion for weights - 15 and 20 pound dumbbells standing on-end seemed to help out (at least it didn't hurt and added some confidence) - so thanks!
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Questions:
Do I need to fill with a bung (might not be deep enough) or famowood over the screw holes in the floor timbers? Or is encapsulating with epoxy enough? They'll be under the sole and not visible, so I'm flexible from an appearance standpoint, especially in comparison to all of the exposed shiny nail heads in the gussets.

Should I encapsulate now? Or wait until all of the sheer/chine/keel/longitundinal cutouts have been made? Or wait even more until it's mounted to the stringers? It seems easiest now, but the later cutouts will require revisiting.

Thanks everyone!

- Andrew
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

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mrintense
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by mrintense »

Andrew, a couple of observations.

First off, with plywood, you do not want to countersink the hole, only pre-drill. The screw head should capture the ply layers. For hardwood you do want to drill and countersink.

AS for appearance, if they are below the sole, then you can do whatever you are comfortable with. All of my frames and gussets have at least three coats of epoxy and any exposed screws/nails were covered over in the process.


I feel that it will be far easier to encapsulate before you mount the frames. Do it after assembling the frames, but before you mount them on the build form.

I also found that it's much easier to mix poxy shield and thicken it after mixing than to mix poxy grip. The Boatbuilding With Plywood book I believe mentions this as well. The advantage of poxy grip is that you do not have to thicken it, but I primed all of my joints with unthickened epoxy immediately before applying the thickened epoxy to insure a better bond.

I would also suggest smooth sanding the gusset edges before applying them (as well as the frames) as epoxy encapsulation will tend to pull away from sharp edges.

One last bit, if you are not doing so, I would highly recommend assembling your frames over drawn patterns on a plywood board. I transferred the patterns to the board on a common centerline and all from the same baseline (using the plans as a guide). This will insure that your frames are the right shape and symmetrical.

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As for sanding, LOL you ain't seen nothing yet!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Carl

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise

Clipper Boating

neel thompson
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by neel thompson »

Andrew... I used SB nails on all frame gussets. I did countersink about 1/16" with a forstner bit slightly larger than the nail head. I also predrilled with a small bit. After the nails were in and the epoxy cured, I filled over the nail heads with thickened epoxy. I know they won't be seen, but for some mental reason, I had to cover them up. I strongly recommend encapsulating now with at least two coats of epoxy resin. When I did my frames, I didn't coat the surfaces to be glued later on (bottoms and tops). I know from experience that it is better to do this now. Believe me !! Neel
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